[QUOTE = "Trachta10, post: 40175372, membro: 292409"] Isso é interessante porque temos diferença no número de assistências. Você usou alguns vídeos como fonte? [/ QUOTE] Sim
I did not realize that there was a final in the Campeonato Paulista of 1973. But also you miss the final of the Recopa Intercontinental againts Inter in 1969. And it seem that there was also a final playing for Cosmos in 1977. If I only rely on my sources, I can't find an assists in the WC final 58 and in the second game against Boca Juniors. It seems that it was an oversight by the defense. maybe you can clarify this with videos. For the games against Bahia you are right, I found two more assists, one game was in 1959 and I didn't have a good source for that season So, this is my table for now
Truly amazing. Pelé gave assists almost at the same rate as he scored goals. I sincerely believe that the last pass is from Garrincha. I saw the play hundreds of times and I don't see Pelé touching the ball.
There are goals during a season that are much easier than a penalty, when you tap it in from two yards, a square ball or whatever. "If somebody says penalties don’t count the same I don’t understand it, I think they count exactly the same – and should always." Jurgen Klopp
Because not every player gets the opportunity to take penalties Jurgen, I would say (admittedly the best penalty takers would tend to be chosen to take them, but each team generally picks one player to do it regularly and he can score quite a few goals that way). The goal stats of penalty takers and non-penalty takers are therefore incomparable in some respects I think, even though of course team tactics come into it with open play goals too (but in theory every player can be in position to score a tap in goal, and players that score a lot of them might benefit a lot from great team play, but also from their own positioning and reading of the game etc). I think this at least makes non-penalty goals an interesting and informative thing to look at. By the way at the moment (not that Trachta intends it like this - it's just hard to take away all team-mate penalties), non-penalty takers are still a bit disadvantaged on this thread in terms of the non-penalty goals calculations because the team-mate penalty goals are not being removed from team totals, but the penalty goals a player himself scored are being removed when it comes to non-penalty goals - I still think arguably if all team-mate penalties can't be removed then the ones a player himself scored shouldn't be either (then the calculation would be non-penalty goals as a percentage of all team goals, including penalties, which would under-state the end product but would be more consistent I suppose between all players, although then I suppose being a prolific penalty taker wouldn't count for anything which might be harsh on players who score a very high % and therefore bring an extra dimension to a team's scoring capabilities above the average...but then again if penalties scored would be included how about penalties won after dribbles/skills that result in clear fouls on the player for example - maybe those would be 'assists' in that case?). They count the same in terms of the scoreline of the game though obviously!
If anything Goals should be weighted according to their difficulty. That would be a demonstrably more time consuming endeavour but the way i see it is better invest your time into something that is a closer reflection of reality. A points system for goals from a Low pressure penalty that the player did not earn Low pressure penalty that the player did earn A high pressure penalty that the player did earn A high pressure penalty that the player did not earn A Free-kick Should be weighted according to the distance,angle,stage and pedigree of the goalkeeper A tap in into an empty net A finish in the penalty box with the preferred foot A finish inside the area with the weaker foot A free header into a empty box A diving header A leaping header Goals from outside the area How far from outside the area? which foot did he use? How difficult was the angle? Was the goalkeeper at fault at all? Solo Goals Did the player just carry the ball 20,30 or 40 yards or did he actually dribbled past opposition players en route to goal? How many players did he dribbled past? What was the quality of the players he dribbled past? What was at stake? The simplification of open play vs non open play goals isn't even remotely close to being scientific There are maybe 15 types of open play goal scenarios that are objectively easier to score from then penalty goals In reality if you are talking about a game without penalties then you are not talking about football. Call it something else Open play ball? But its not football
But then it becomes like a WhoScored type system, and the scores depend on the choices about what is rewarded with how many points etc, plus it would be impossible to do for older players (even with decent match reports available) mostly (for World Cups from 1966 it can be done, like we see with the attempts of OPTA and Castrol etc). I think this thread should just be taken for what it is - a very nice attempt by Trachta at showing the percentages of goals contributed to with end product (goals and assists), which at least reflects that some players find it easier to tally up very high numbers of goals and assists but that others who played in lower scoring eras and/or for less stacked teams relative to opponents might have a similar 'contribution' in that sense. It's just another thing to add to the statistical collection I suppose. What I would say though as an example, is that players such as Weah, Cruyff, Dalglish that didn't take many penalties at all, would actually have a better contribution % (if penalties were included) if they took every penalty and missed it than if team-mates took them and scored most of them, because every penalty scored by a team-mate becomes a goal without contribution by them (even if they 'won' the penalty because no assists are being awarded that way, partly because it's not possible to understand how many penalties each player won, especially for older players, I guess). So this is a big disadvantage vs penalty takers, and not reflective of the open play situation. Of course Trachta has done two versions though - the original method did have penalties included so that can still be seen, even if he's favouring the non-penalty version more now (which fairly assesses open play output anyway - ok direct free-kicks etc might not be open play technically but they are not simple to score and most players are not expected to score more than miss or have them saved).
Even for older players it isn't impossible. just difficult Some work has already been done on deeper stats for players in the early 1980s Maradona’s fouls drawn p90 in 1981 compared to Messi’s and Ronaldo’s best seasons foul winning wise :1) Maradona 1981 : 𝟳.𝟬𝟬2) Ronaldo 2004/05 : 𝟯.𝟴𝟮3) Messi 2005/06 : 𝟯.𝟱𝟱Young Maradona was special 🇦🇷💥 pic.twitter.com/2mxbf4Eh1g— Gasipo (@gasipo_opinions) January 3, 2022 It's not for everyone to interpret data but the findings are great nonetheless
Yes, not impossible, but difficult, to get detailed stats (and understandings of situations, in terms of exactly what happened) is fair comment probably (although impossible to get all of them for all players would also be true of course).
transfermakt counted 3, just 2 opta https://www.transfermarkt.com.ar/gerd-muller/nationalmannschaft/spieler/35604
#Updated Most goal involvement in Finals Ferenc Puskás: 11 games, (15 goals + 3 assists)/ (27) = 67.67% Pelé: 26 games, (29 goals + 14 assists)/ (72) = 59.72% Zico: 19 games, (7 goals + 6 assists)/ (23) = 56.52% György Sárosi: 17 games, (15 games + 9 assists)/ (44) = 54.55% Diego Maradona: 14 games, (3 goals + 10 assists)/ (25) = 52% Lionel Messi: 44 games, (31 goals + 13 assists)/ (85) = 51.76% Johan Cruyff: 15 games, (9 goals + 6 assists)/ (29) = 51.72% Cristiano Ronaldo: 35 games, (20 goals + 2 assists)/ (55) = 40%
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Maradona’s fouls drawn p90 in 1981 compared to Messi’s and Ronaldo’s best seasons foul winning wise :1) Maradona 1981 : 𝟳.𝟬𝟬2) Ronaldo 2004/05 : 𝟯.𝟴𝟮3) Messi 2005/06 : 𝟯.𝟱𝟱Young Maradona was special 🇦🇷💥 pic.twitter.com/2mxbf4Eh1g— Gasipo (@gasipo_opinions) January 3, 2022 I am very interested to find out how that reflects on the yellow card ratio from two different perspectives, the yellow cards produced directly by Maradona, and the yellow cards produced by the team as a collective unit, and see how Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo compare in that regard. And on a similar note, I wonder how Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo compare to Francesco Totti 2003-04, Alessandro Del Piero 2002-03 (or some other year that was better than 2002-03, which I imagine was the case before the career-altering knee injury), and Roman Riquelme 2004-05. Yellow cards won by a specific player is not a statistic that exists, or is it? If it exists, it must've been incorporated in recent years, because I don't remember seeing that specific metric. @PDG1978 Do you know if there's a space somewhere on the internet, where I could find the yellow cards of Ajax 1970s Cruijff Era?
In 1987 there was no final, Internacional and Flamengo were classified for the final module with Sport Recife and Guarani, which was in points to decide the champion of Brasileirão
I would like to send the excel document with Ronaldo's goals and assists, but I can't. Trachta10, how can I save an excel document as an image?
[QUOTE = "Trachta10, postagem: 40177464, membro: 292409"] # Atualizado Maior envolvimento do gol nas Finais Ferenc Puskás : 11 jogos, (15 gols + 3 assistências) / (27) = 67,67% Pelé : 26 jogos, (29 gols + 14 assistências) / (72) = 59,72% Zico : 19 jogos, (7 gols + 6 assistências) / (23) = 56,52% György Sárosi : 17 jogos, (15 jogos + 9 assistências) / (44) = 54,55% Diego Maradona : 14 jogos, (3 gols + 10 assistências) / (25) = 52% Lionel Messi : 44 jogos, (31 gols + 13 assistências) / (85) = 51,76% Johan Cruyff : 15 jogos, (9 gols + 6 assistências) / (29) = 51,72% Cristiano Ronaldo : 35 jogos, (20 gols + 2 assistências) / (55) = 40% [/ QUOTE] Ronaldo Fenômeno em Finais na CARREIRA: 19 - Jogos 16 - Gols 04 - Assistências
I'm not aware of anything I don't think, no. Maybe @PuckVanHeel has some idea or a source? These pages for example have space to display yellow cards but nothing in the boxes - I guess for some later years the data is there, and they just use a common format and leave the boxes empty if they don't have the numbers available.... Ajax Season 1970-71 (afc-ajax.info) Cruyff is shown as having a red card in this season, but still no yellow cards noted: Ajax Season 1969-70 (afc-ajax.info) None for these other seasons either (I've not clicked on every relevant season just now but I guess it's the same for all...and the opponent yellow cards won't be shown either in the game details) Ajax Season 1966-67 (afc-ajax.info) Ajax Season 1971-72 (afc-ajax.info) (One red card for Keizer shown there for example too) I'm looking in the section called 'Selection' which you have to scroll down the page to see, below the list of games. However, yellow cards possibly weren't in use, literally, even if players could be 'cautioned' or warned which might be the same thing, in effect. I've seen references to the 1970 World Cup being the place yellow cards were first shown to players, and in the English league for example apparently they came in for 1975/76 according to this page (and I have vague recollection of a time when they weren't in use again in my lifetime I think, which the page might mention - I only found it right now and had a brief glance at it) Yellow and Red Cards In Football | History and Use Of Cards For Discipline and Cautioning | Football-Stadiums.co.uk
That applies to red cards too to be fair, as the page explains, although a sending off would be clear to viewers and easily recorded obviously, and 'red cards' on the Ajax pages will refer to sendings off. I guess the referee did used to 'book' players already before yellow cards were used though (write their names, and/or numbers, in his book) which was in effect the evidence of the caution/warning which was the same as a yellow card...so it's possible that there would be records kept somewhere about bookings.