It would be interesting to further categorize goal-scorers by their strengths. Sort of like how assist-providers are classified by their throughball potential, or crossing prowess. I am pretty much in agreement with the historical comparisons, but I do not know how to classify the goals by video for the older players, and the precise nature of the categorization used by WhoScored to contrast players from different eras by numbers. WhoScored seems to divide non-penalty goals into goals that belong to: 1) Open-play 2) Transition 3) Set-pieces And since Trachta10 covered open-play in thorough detail, I'd like to cover some players that hit high numbers (not exhaustive) and I used absolute count to reward availability, which is key to hitting massive goal counts. 1) Counter-attack goals Cristiano Ronaldo: 50 (0.08 per 90) Kylian Mbappe: 49 (0.11 per 90) Mohamed Salah: 42 (0.08 per 90) Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang: 39 (0.08 per 90) Lionel Messi: 37 (0.06 per 90) 2) Set-pieces goals (includes direct freekick goals) Harry Kane: 66 (0.12 per 90) Robert Lewandowski: 64 (0.10 per 90) Lionel Messi: 59 (0.09 per 90) Cristiano Ronaldo: 55 (0.09 per 90) Luuk de Jong: 53 (0.14 per 90)
Yeah, I suppose for players of Ronaldo Nazario's era, that videos like this can be used (obviously what is not available is xG, BCC, BCM etc etc, data-wise though, to give a fuller idea about profile):
It seems like potentially about 38 open play (involving variations between running with the ball past players, running onto the ball, scoring from wide balls although only once via a header...) and 9 from set-pieces (including a couple of rebound goals after his penalty was saved, and one goal from a second phase after a free-kick, but otherwise penalty goals)? But yeah, depends on the definition for transition/counter attacks goals: could halfway line run goal vs Compostela even be considered a transition goal? Plus maybe I should re-watch (or watch for 1st time in some cases) the full build-up to some goals - some could quality as transition goals due to where move started potentially I guess.... Not many set-piece goals outside penalties, or poacher/target man style goals from open play anyway though.
Let's see, Neymar doesn't score more goals because he's creating plays. He would score more if he decided to create less. That has nothing to do with ability, it's a role, a function of the player. Do you get that? Neymar could have been close to Messi in terms of goals if he had been in a specific context that favored that. I remind you that if you remove penalties, free kicks, and headers, Neymar produces the same number of goals per90 as Cristiano Ronaldo (in this real World), while generating twice as many assists and pre-assists. That means that Cristiano is better at free kicks and headers, yes, but in open play Neymar is equivalent and probably better, that is reflected in the fact that he produces the same goal average and is even more efficient (whoscored data)
Per90 OP Goals: This is all the goals except penalties, free kicks and headers (scored by the player) Headers Free Kicks Penalties Assists (Opta)
lmao "Neymar doesn't score more goals because he's creating plays. He would score more if he decided to create less". Firstly, Managers put players in the roles they think the player is better. If Neymar's best asset were goalscoring, managers would put him to score goals. They didn't cause they know Neymar is better at creating chances than at scoring.
Neymar wouldn't score as many goals during transitions as Kylian Mbappe even if he tried. Neymar does not evolve like a Pokémon and gain extra-speed if he chooses to sprint behind defensive lines more often. Neymar wouldn't score as many goals as Harry Kane during corner-kicks, he simply does not have the ability to withstand physical duels inside the box. He does not magically gain bulk as he chooses to stay inside the 6-yard box surrounded by large defenders. The fact that he is capable of more with the ball at his feet, does not mean he magically gets the necessary toolkits to score 50 goals a season, and if you can imagine a season where he does, based on retarded extrapolations where every football game magically turns into a 90 minute indoor 5-aside session, with minimal aerial balls and physical requirements, and Neymar's field of specialty becomes the entire footballing universe, that is entirely dependent on your personal interpretation of football, not a valid conclusion off statistical analysis, so stop pretending this is so. If you wanted to assert Neymar can score more goals in an indoor football session where a player has to link-up with two other teammates versus 3 defenders inside the box, maybe you have a point. In a real football game with transitions, wide open spaces to exploit, and set pieces scenarios where the ability to withstand physical contact matters, Neymar does not even come close, and none of his playmaking statistics has any merit in asserting his likelihood to score 50 goals a season that very few elite goal-scorers ever managed. And no, Neymar does not have the ability to score like Lionel Messi. They are not even remotely alike in terms of levels. Lionel Messi is able to shoot mid-motion significantly better.
I'll later try to reverse engineer how WhoScored defines counter-attack goals because right now I cannot for the life of me, tell if there is a time limit after the ball is stolen from the opponent, or if there is a touch limit. I can think of a couple of goals I personally thought were counter-attack goals, but WhoScored seems to classify them as open-play goals if you check the WhoScored match report. https://m.youtube.com/shorts/CNK_kHlTlY8 https://m.youtube.com/shorts/w5PFzj9QEEQ Until then, I cannot really compare counter-attack goals as defined by WhoScored, to compare numbers between players. It truly does not help that the readily available definitions have the clarity of a toddler drawing with a broken paint brush. I think going through the entire goal collection of modern day counter-attack specialists with easily accessible goal clips like Kylian Mbappe, Jamie Vardy and Son Heung-Min, and contrasting the goals to WhoScored records may be required for me to have a decent grasp of which Ronaldo Nazario goals count as counter-attack goals.
Haha, I like that analogy mate! I can tell it's a bit frustrating for your endeavours though: returning to that definitions page I located not long ago shows this, but yeah maybe you saw this anyway and it does seem a bit unclear (for example the fast break pattern of play - again that Ronaldo goal vs Compostela potentially fits it even though all his own work and from near halfway - other goals may fit it by default and therefore not be deemed 'open play' if the defending team regains possession in their own half and builds a direct or quick attack in some way or other possibly which would probably apply to a few of those Ronaldo Barcelona goals): "There are seven patterns of play, one of which must be assigned to each attempt. Regular – an attempt created from an open play attack Set piece – an attempt created where the ball starts from an indirect free kick dead ball situation Throw in – an attempt created from a throw in Direct free kick – an attempt created from a direct free kick situation Direct corner – a goal scored directly from the cornerCorner – an attempt created from a corner situation Fast break – an attempt created after the defensive quickly turn defence into attack winning the ball in their own half (counter attack) Penalty – The penalty attempt itself, any follow up shot would be classed as set piece. Passed penalties are also counted as ‘Penalty’ pattern of play. The relevant pattern of play is assigned to a shot before the phase of play has broken down into open play. The exact point at which it becomes open play is usually clear but set pieces and corners which are cleared and then the ball is put straight back into the penalty area are still deemed to be part of the set play as the defending team is still positioned to deal with the set play. This rule includes the free kicks, corners, throw ins and penalties." Opta Event Definitions - Stats Perform
You understand that Neymar scores the same number of open-play goals without headers as Cristiano Ronaldo, right? You are creating a fictional idea in your mind in which Neymar has a lack of ability in a lot of things that Neymar actually does have.
That line of thought make a whole lot of sense, if Cristiano Ronaldo scored 50 open-play goals in a single season. A player matching his open-play goal tally for a single season is not the end-point. There are still ways to go. Which isn't a problem for the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo. It is a major issue for Neymar. Capiche? Jesus Christ. How many drinks did you have?
I am talking about Neymar's and Cristiano's ability to score goals with their feet in open play, (I call open play anything that is not a penalty or a free kick scored by the player himself) which represents 70–80% of the goals that happen in football. Neymar is equally good and probably better in that aspect, that's my point. I understand that you're saying that, in a real world scenario, it would be difficult for Neymar to reach 50 goals because his lack of aerial ability would reduce his opportunities and, so to speak, cause him to miss out on a portion of potential goals. But I remind you that Messi did it, so it's possible, I don't think Neymar would have been very far from that. In any case, I never intended to debate the issue of reaching a certain number of goals. My point has always been that Neymar has the same goalscoring ability as long as we're not talking about headed goals.
Trachta is not really comparing goalscoring ability. He is comparing a narrowed down, handicapped, castrated version of finishing that removes half of Cristiano Ronaldo’s strongest goalscoring tools. He removes headers. He downplays physical pressure. He narrows the discussion to passes to feet. He treats high shot volume as “bad decision making”. He treats Neymar’s lower shot volume as “intelligence”. He treats Real Madrid’s dominance as something external to Cristiano. He invents hypothetical equal chances that never existed. Then he concludes Neymar is probably the better open play scorer even though his own table does not clearly show that. That is not a refutation of Cristiano. That is a controlled environment built specifically to make Neymar look closer. He says something along the lines of: “Cristiano scores 50 goals because he plays for Real Madrid. Put him in a weaker team and he does not score that many.” WOW. What a revelation. Great teams help great players score more goals. Who knew? That is true of literally every high volume scorer in history. Put Messi in a weaker team and he scores less. Put Lewandowski in a weaker team and he scores less. Put Haaland in a weaker team and he scores less. Put Neymar in a weaker team and he scores less. The question is not whether great teams help great players. OF COURSE THEY DO. The question is whether the player maximised the platform better than others. And Cristiano clearly did. Especially in the Champions League where Real Madrid had elite players before him, during him and after him but NOBODY reproduced his knockout scoring output. Nobody. Cristiano was not merely a passenger in the “Real Madrid context”. His movement, box occupation, aerial threat, weak foot threat, finishing, timing AND ability to repeatedly attack decisive spaces were part of why Madrid became that devastating in the first place. This guy wants to treat the team environment as if it existed independently from Cristiano then use that same environment to erase Cristiano’s contribution. He then says something along the lines of: “Cristiano has never scored in a World Cup final so he does not actually score when it matters.” This World Cup final analogy is complete crap. Portugal never reached a World Cup final. Cristiano cannot score in a match his country never played. Champions League knockout football however, is not one hypothetical match. It is a massive sample across many seasons where Cristiano repeatedly played and repeatedly scored. That is the difference. One is absence of opportunity. The other is repeated production in the highest pressure club environment in football. And if we are talking about “when it matters”, did you just conveniently ignore that Cristiano Ronaldo has scored one of the highest totals of match winning goals in the history of football? More than Messi. Match winning goals. Equalisers. Important goals. Champions League knockout goals. Quarter final goals. Semi final goals. Final goals. Away goals. Comeback goals. Pressure goals. But because Portugal never played a World Cup final we are supposed to pretend all of that never happened? He then says something along the lines of: “Give Neymar and Cristiano 100 key passes inside the box to the same positions and they score the same.” Well done Trachta. You have successfully removed half of football from the discussion. Same “position” is not the same chance. The body angle matters. The pass speed matters. The pass height matters. The defender’s position matters. The goalkeeper’s position matters. The player’s dominant foot matters. The type of delivery matters. The physical contact matters. The timing of the movement matters. Whether the ball is aerial or grounded matters. Whether the player has to attack the space or merely receive the ball matters. A cutback is not the same as a floated cross. A pass to feet is not the same as a ball attacked in the air. A bouncing ball is not the same as a driven pass. A first time shot under pressure is not the same as a clean touch and finish. A contested header is not the same as a ball rolled into your strong foot. So when he says “give them the same key passes inside the box”, he is already talking nonsense. And once he says “to feet only”, he is openly narrowing the sample to favour Neymar. Why should goalscoring ability exclude headers? Why should it exclude crosses? Why should it exclude physical duels? Why should it exclude aerial pressure? Why should it exclude the ability to separate from defenders? Why should it exclude the ability to score when the ball is not served perfectly to your feet? This is like judging playmaking while removing through balls, long passes, switches and final third passing because one player is worse at them. Neymar being close in a cherry picked open play/non header metric does not erase Cristiano’s overall superiority as a goalscorer. In fact, if Cristiano is basically level with Neymar even after stripping away penalties, free kicks and headers then once you add back the things Neymar cannot match especially aerial goals, high volume scoring responsibility, box movement and sustained decisive production Cristiano’s superiority becomes obvious. The real crime is not that Trachta thought it would be a good idea to construct a castrated version of Cristiano Ronaldo and compare him to Neymar. The real crime is that he actually believed Neymar’s own goal record was worth anything to begin with . 272 goals out of Neymar’s 377 career club goals were scored in Brazil and France. 72.1%. 15 out of his 21 final goals were scored in Brazilian/French Cup finals. 71.4%. 26 out of his 37 Champions League assists were produced in the group stages. 70.2%. 30 out of his 43 Champions League goals were scored in the group stages. 70%. 148 out of his 216 career league goals were scored in Brazil and France 68.5% 46 out of his 79 international goals were scored in friendly matches. 58%. Neymar is in a two horse race with Bernie Madoff for the title of greatest fraudster in human history. So while Trachta is busy trying to strip Cristiano Ronaldo of headers, penalties, free kicks, aerial duels, physical pressure, shot volume, Real Madrid context, Champions League context and basically every major component of elite goalscoring, maybe he should ask why so much of Neymar’s production comes from Brazil, France, group stages, domestic cup finals and international friendlies. This guy won’t stop until he has stripped Cristiano Ronaldo of his clothes, socks and boxers and left him butt naked outside the Argentine embassy begging with a cup in his hand. Tragic
Four categories: A - Penalties B - Free kicks C - Headers D - The rest of the goals; use whatever classifications you want and from whatever positions you want. In category D, Neymar is better than Cristiano Ronaldo. He has the same goals per90 average while receiving fewer chances, meaning he is more efficient. In addition, Neymar is constantly creating plays for his teammates, which makes this even more impressive.
You seem to believe that efficiency is more important than effectiveness. The former is goals per chance and the latter is total goals. A forward's job is to put the ball in the back of the net - effectiveness. Ronaldo's ability to get into positions to receive chances and ultimately convert them at a higher volume makes him much more productive, as everyone else knows, except you. Penalizing a player because their movement allows them to get into better positions for more chances is a logical paradox only you can type up.
Just like Neymar spends his time in deeper areas of the pitch than the average striker, a player can spend more time in close-proximity zones. Having presence inside the box is a taxing and demanding role also, so it detracts from having space and time to do other functions. Some players can manage multiple functions, for some, being a physical presence inside the box is more all-encompassing. It does not mean that a player who stays in areas that generates the greatest xG in terms of close-proximity headed goals can be assumed to be world-class at different types of goal-scenarios, purely based on his mastery at heading alone. That requires a separate examination. Likewise, it does not mean Neymar magically gains the ability to receive aerial balls inside the 6-yard box should he simply choose to do so, just because he is so amazing at providing pre-assists. This is just my initial attempt at inspection at the players that chose to maximize their headed shot volume. Players with the least minutes required for each headed shot taken (WhoScored data): Olivier Giroud: 79.9 minutes Robert Lewandowski: 92.6 minutes Cristiano Ronaldo: 103.4 minutes Erling Haaland: 106.4 minutes Zlatan Ibrahimov: 127.9 minutes Harry Kane: 130.7 minutes Gareth Bale: 149.2 minutes Karim Benzema: 158.1 minutes Sadio Mane: 190.2 minutes Sergio Aguero: 217.6 minutes Luis Suarez: 260.5 minutes Lionel Messi: 387.7 minutes Neymar: 394.1 minutes Kylian Mbappe: 550.6 minutes Kevin De Bruyne: 3000.7 minutes There are some of the names I could think of. Maybe Kevin De Bruyne could score more headed goals than these lucky and undeserving strikers who spent their entire careers at honing that craft, if he was not so talented and busy providing first-class crosses.
But if, after removing headed goals, Neymar produces the same number of open-play goals as Cristiano, that means he is also effective.
Effective and as effective are not the same thing, at all. So not sure why you're trying to slip it in there. He is not as effective because one player has 5 Champions Leagues, the most goals in the Champions League, most goals in the knockout stage of the Champions League, most goals as a professional footballer in club and international competition, etc. etc. The other does not have that or even close to having that. So BY DEFINITION, he is not as effective. Not even close so the argument is moot.
Neymar is never going to score headed goals; that was never up for debate. If you remove headed goals, Neymar produces the same number of open play goals as Cristiano. Yes, you heard that right, I said quantity. How do you defend that? Evidently, the guy has all that ability and efficiency that you're not giving him credit for.
Remove the headed goals and Neymar produces the same open play goals p90 average as Cristiano. That is a reality. What that means is that he is just as effective, and also more efficient at scoring goals "with his feet". When it comes to headers, Cristiano wins.
See, you use words without understanding them and it's always your downfall. He is definitionally not as effective, and the belief you think he is, well, it shows you use words without knowing what they mean. Ronaldo has 106K minutes played vs. Neymar's 57k. Do you understand how statistics work over a long timeline? Maintaining an elite-goal scoring over nearly double the minutes is infinitely harder. You cannot be as effective, by definition, if you don't have as many total goals and the reason Ronaldo does have more total goals, meaning he is more effective, is because he maintains the same efficiency over double the minutes played, which is infinitely harder, and not something you seem to understand. So by definition, no, he is not as effective. If he did, he'd have the same number of goals. Try looking up the definitions of words next time you use them. You are, unsurprisingly, confusing efficiency and effectiveness or just assuming they're the same thing and you couldn't be more wrong, particularly given effectiveness, which means achieving a successful result, is of ultimate importance relatively.
I am using the definitions of effectiveness and efficiency perfectly. You're the one trying to act smart and using that as some kind of argument. Saying, just like that, that Cristiano's average is lower because he played many matches is not something that is an absolute truth. I don't think anyone can clearly determine something like that from a mathematical standpoint. It is bad to talk about averages when you have a very small data sample, because by probability averages take on extreme values. But if we're talking about hundreds of matches, that argument loses its meaning. Saying that Neymar, who has almost 800 matches played, has some kind of mathematical advantage and that this is why he has a better average than Cristiano is almost certainly a very poor attempt at an argument.
Ok, you are absolutely wrong and you are a waste of time. Conveniently side stepping the fact that Ronaldo has double the minutes played. If you think statistics doesn't say maintaining efficiency over double the amount of time is significantly harder then you don't care about truth but worst of all, it shows you have less of a grasp of statistics than someone that took a middle school stats course. It's easily verifiable and you don't care about truth clearly. Also Ronaldo does not have a lower average. He has 0.48 goals P90 vs 0.47 so he has a higher average and maintains it over much more time. Every time you type something new it's wrong. See ya. Google AI: "is maintaining efficiency over double the amount of time in soccer significantly harder, comparing a player with 107k minutes played vs 57k minutes in their career" Answer: " Yes, maintaining efficiency over 107,000 minutes compared to 57,000 minutes is astronomically harder due to compounding physiological degradation, localized joint wear, and the natural biological aging curve. In professional football, 107k minutes represents roughly 1,200 full matches, an extreme statistical outlier typically achieved only by legendary, injury-resistant players like Peter Shilton or Cristiano Ronaldo over a 20+ year career. Conversely, 57k minutes represents roughly 630 matches, which is already a complete, highly successful 12-to-15-year career for a standard elite professional." You lose. "is it harder statistically, answer using statistical terms" " Yes, it is statistically much harder. Doubling the minutes forces career metrics to face two brutal mathematical realities: The Law of Large Numbers Erases Flukes: At 57,000 minutes, a player's career average can still be padded by peak-years and hot streaks. At 107,000 minutes, the massive sample size ruthlessly dilutes those peaks, dragging the overall average down to a true baseline. Non-Stationary Data (The Aging Effect): In statistics, a data pool is "stationary" if its conditions never change. Soccer stats are highly non-stationary because the human body degrades. A 107,000-minute dataset is forced to include a massive volume of downward-trending data points from the player's older, less efficient years. Extreme Survivorship Bias: The probability of a player maintaining elite efficiency decreases exponentially over time. To reach 107,000 minutes without performance dropping below the league average requires being a multi-standard-deviation statistical anomaly. In short, the 57k player is measured against their prime; the 107k player is measured against time itself. " You lose again. And are officially, a waste of time.
Google AI: "What does astronomically harder mean?" "The phrase "astronomically harder" means that a task or challenge is immensely or inconceivably more difficult to complete. It is a figurative exaggeration that borrows the concept of the vast, unfathomable scale of the cosmos to describe a monumental leap in difficulty. [1, 2, 3, 4]" @Trachta10, smfh. "B-b-but, they're the same. And actually Neymar is more impressive." LMAO. You are such a pure Ronaldo hater and your bias distorts your entire mind and doesn't even bend the truth, it sidesteps it completely and grasps onto falsehoods and lies and calls it truth. Genuinely shocking and sad to see.
I give Neymar plenty of credit when it is due, just not in the realm of goal-scoring. The fact that he manages to match a truncated aspect of Cristiano Ronaldo's overall goal-scoring toolkit means very little in the realm of goal-scoring prowess. For Neymar, it is his instagram profile picture. For Cristiano Ronaldo, it is just another picture in an entire portfolio. It is like a no-name boxer who is boasting about the fact that he can punch harder than Jon Jones every single time he can mention it. The fact that it might be true, doesn't mean I am due to appreciate his actual overall fighting prowess. It isn't that hard to match the selectively profiled goal-types of very prolific goal-scorers. You can take any prolific decent wing-forward of your choosing, and contrast them to strikers with heavy penalty-box presence (as in they spend a greater period of time being crowded-out inside the box), and jack-off about how they come pretty close, or even surpass them if you tweak the numbers just right. Harry Kane never managed to go over 22 "category D" goals for a single domestic season in his entire life, you can check his EPL seasons too if you want. Timo Werner managed 25 in his best ever season. When are you going to give your due flowers to peak 2019/2020 Timo Werner? I totally respect Neymar's potency on-the-ball. I just think in the arena of goal-scoring, and goal-scoring across an entire spectrum of scenarios that one finds himself across the entire season, he is no heavyweight. No amount of extrapolation of his domains of strength can change that.