I would agree more with this second definition. Basically I mean to warn against being too simplistic. Scoring extra goals is not necessarily to be discarded as stat padding. Of course if we are not talking about scoring 4th goal to 0 at 91st minute. Also an overused player could result quite clutch by considering crude numbers but that could have well happened to the detriment of overall team results.
The best analysis is not done by predetermining which metric is the best and sole placeholder of value, and then arguing about definitions, semantics and exceptions. "Clutch" is not a one-dimensional metric. It doesnt have to be reduced to one statistical definition, nor it should be reduced as such. There is no reason to stop at G/A when trailing by one goal (from state -1 to state 0) or a match is tie (0 -> +1). Whole contribution is ideally analyzed based on various, sensical parameters. Capturing every transition state from a sample: -5 -> -4 -4 -> -3 -3 -> -2 -2 -> -1 -1 -> 0 0 -> +1 +1 -> +2 +2 -> +3 +3 -> +4 +4 -> +5 +5 -> +6 +6 -> +7 In absolute terms and relative one (relative to how many such goals team scored); per phase of the game (1-15, 16-30, 31-45+, etc.); per competition; per elo difference of teams. You make histograms so you can visually see broader patterns for different statidtical slices. Color goals, assists, pre-assists differently so you might see how contribution of a player changes based on states and similar. Etc. Arguing over which narrow definition most suits clutch is poitnless.
With Cristiano Ronaldo, Real Madrid scored 100+ goals in eight straight seasons; before him it happened only once and, since he left, this never happened again... This right here is quite BIZARRE! From the 9 seasons there only in 17/18 Real Madrid with him didn't do this feat. In the occasion he only played 27 games in the season 17/18, which were the only season the club didn't manage to surpass 100 goals from the 9 he played
In 2016/17 season, Real scored 106 goals in 38 games (2,79 gpg). Ronaldo missed 9 games in which Real scored 31 goals (3,44 gpg). With Ronaldo on the pitch, Real scored (106-31=) 75 goals in 29 games (2,59 gpg). Ronaldo missed (9÷38=) 23,7 % of games, while Real in those scored (31÷106=) 29,2 % of total goals. Overall = 2,79 gpg With Ronaldo = 2,59 gpg Without Ronaldo = 3,44 gpg
Let's ignore the sample of 8/9 seasons scoring 100+ goals (something that only happened once in 180 years of history without Ronaldo) because of a cherry picked sample of 9 games (which happens to be games against weaker teams like Deportivo, Eibar, Granada, Sporting, Leganés, etc...). You just gave a lesson on how not to use statistics by ignoring context and using small samples that are not representative and can be misleading. In fact I would make an argument that Ronaldo delivered when it mattered most in 16/17 as by the end of the year he scored only 16 goals and in the second half of the season he scored 25 goals, 10 of them from QF to final against Allegri's Juve with Buffon, Bonucci and Chiellini, Ancelotti's Bayern with Neuer, Hummels and Boateng and Simeone's Atleti with Oblak, Godin and Savić granting Real Madrid the double.
This is a different method that I’m not as convinced by. It only counts, based on matches played, how many goals the team scored while the player was on the pitch and how many they scored while he wasn’t. I have the exact minutes the player was on the field, so the team’s goals per 90 with the player are exact. But I don’t have the exact data for the player’s minutes off the field because I don’t have the data for 120-minute matches, so to calculate how much the team scores on average in the minutes when the player wasn’t on the pitch (while off column), I assume (number of matches the player played × 90) and subtract the minutes the player actually played. That way I get the minutes when the player was not on the field. This is somewhat inexact because I’m not considering 120-minute matches, which would add more minutes to the count, but roughly speaking the difference isn’t very large.
It was a rethoric as a response to Isaias' comment on Ronaldo missing games in 2018 and correlating it with Real not scoring above 100 goals in the league. Ronaldo also missed a lot of games season prior to 2018 and Real scored plenty in his absence. Of course, he doesnt mention that part. It doesnt work because you cant substract a player that is ingrained in a system and expect for everything to stay the same in his absence, and most players play most games, so the games they miss are basically random sample type.
Yeah, I was just showing you this data I have, what I mean is that what I’m showing you is the method I’m not that convinced by
Again, the games Ronaldo missed weren't random. Zidane chose to rest his best player against weaker teams which Real Madrid would trash anyway. It's very misleading and even dishonest for you to compare those games with the average of the whole season which includes games vs Barcelona, Atletico and Sevilla. Anyway again 9 games are such a small sample size compared to the overwhelming 8 seasons that it's insignificant. The mere fact that the team never managed to reach 100 goals before or after him only shows he were the driving force of concistency
Yeah Real Madrid were a bunch hopeless incompetents that for decades would overpay a player that was never going to contributing more than his reserve. I buy it. No doubt.
Why is this? I'm not European, so its curious to me why countries such as Spain, which have such a rich history of tacticians and geniuses of football be so diverse and endless of great playmakers, ball carries, passers, runners, etc., but almost no great finishers and no one to be the stone on the top of the temple......
I’m not sure, but I tend to think it’s something cultural beyond football, while spaniards may be more organized and ‘collective’ in their way of thinking, maybe a south american is more daring and individualistic
Xavi 2008 Games: 68 Goals: 16 (1 FK, 1 hdr) Assists: 19 (Opta) Assists: 4 (Non-Opta) Pre-Assists: 14 (Opta) Pre-Assists: 10 (Non-Opta) G+A* p90: 1.037 Team Contribution 63/139: 45.3% Clutch Contribution 32/68: 47.1% Xavi 2008 vs Zidane 1998 Zidane 2003
No one is saying that Cristiano would be worse than his reserve or that he’s an average player, but the fact that in the matches he didn’t play Real Madrid scored almost the same, shows that the team scores a lot of goals not because Cristiano is specifically there occupying that spot. Then that whole argument that Cristiano is the reason why Real Madrid scores so many goals falls apart. If Real Madrid scores 100 goals with him, without him they would score 90.
La Liga as a whole had a higher average of goals per match between the 2009/10 and 2017/18 seasons, coinciding with the period Cristiano played for Real Madrid. Yes, It’s a coincidence, they’re specific historical circumstances that every player has and cannot control.
Again, the games Ronaldo didn't play were against weaker opposition and it's such as small sample size (9 games) that it's misleading.
the only chance from C. Ronaldo ... to be better than Lionel Messi .. is winning the next World Cup 2026 ... against Messi's Argentina in the semi-finals ...or mainly in the Final . "! out this C. Ronaldo ... is clearly lesser effective than Lionel Messi ,,.. but it's not a crime
Stop dreaming... Cristiano never had a chance against Messi since when the argentinian reached his prime level around 2010. Cristiano Ronaldo is a player below that level and always has been, as he is also below prime Cruyff, below prime Maradona, below prime Pelé, maybe below other such as Di Stefano or Puskas too. Not in the same caliber of a player, not a crime, just what he is.
i have spoken this ..! If If If to win ...against Messi in the next World Cup 2026 But ..C. Ronaldo He hasn't won yet... So it's just an imagination for the future, a possible hypothesis. is not a Fact yet ! That's what I said there. Please don't add anything I didn't say.
hahaha .. I'm not a fan of Cristiano Ronaldo I have better things to do with my life. Honestly, I'm not a fan of any football player. that's it boy ! if you're really a younger boy hahaha !!! Even Pelé!
You admit that Messi reached his peak in 2010. Well, if Messi's peak is the benchmark, and Ronaldo surpassed him in Ballon d'Or awards and Champions League titles in the subsequent years (2013, 2014, 2016, 2017), it is implicitly proven by your own chronology that Messi's level was insufficient to contain Ronaldo's dominance during both players' prime