It could feasibly be his peak (where the "blond arrow" meets the more refined version of himself) but it's too difficult to say (and he did still have some speed at Real Madrid, and even in the 1960 EC Final did score after a speedy run with the ball over some distance at least of course, so that kind of action hadn't totally disappeared from his attributes-set).
No worries; thanks for showing the voting page now and for this post. I worked out anyway that 'half-winger' was a translation for the Mezzala role (that Boniperti began to play in the years of Charles and Sivori), thanks. Yeah, I suppose in Juve 49/50, it is not so different to in some English teams then (as an old user RoyoftheRovers used to describe on the forum for example) with one withdrawn inside forward (Martino) and one goalscoring inside forward (John Hansen, playing somewhat like a true striker in some respects I suppose, with Boniperti a mobile centre forward already in that team). Perhaps how Martino played in Juve 49/50 would be somewhere between how Didi would play when nominally an inside right, and how he played in WC58 alongside Zito in a 4-2-4 (as playmaking central midfielder)....
Gianni Brera once remarked that that specific Juventus side played a sort of "disguised" catenaccio. Muccinelli, acting as the connecting winger, would drop back to play as an attacking midfielder. Martino would then move into a holding role alongside Piccinini, while Mari marked the center-forward, effectively freeing Parola. The attacking trio consisted of Boniperti, Hansen, and Praest. During the years of Sivori and Charles, however, Boniperti became the complete playmaker who orchestrated the entire Juventus game. Because of his versatile style of play, he was often compared to the likes of Alfredo Di Stéfano and Valentino Mazzola.
Maybe what would be interesting @Trachta10 is to separate players by role for goal contributions, a bit like these? Futbol Mundial on X: "Los MEJORES jugadores por posición EL RANKING DEFINITIVO https://t.co/EVsyw3Mz7W" / X Although deciding the categories would be hard (I had a brainstorm for my own feasible top 10 in those categories, and surely there are many close calls between DM/CM, CM/AM, AM/Mediapunta, Mediapunta/Attacker, right wing and mediapunta and/or attacker, left wing and mediapunta and/or attacker - in my case I also put Beckenbauer and Sammer in DM, even though I'd classify them more as liberos than real defensive mids, since there is just one 'defender' category, and I think Rivera as CM (rather than AM) and Iniesta as left winger (rather than AM) would be particularly borderline and probably just suited the overall selection process better while just about being justifiable - on the other hand I felt I had to give the opposite of the benefit of the doubt to old-era legends like Meazza or Sarosi, while for example all things considered I went with Totti (considering more for mediapunta than AM probably) and Kempes (also considering more for mediapunta maybe, rather than attacker) just missing out on the shuffle for the top 10s....(I think there are examples too where I raised a player some slots if they seemed more suited for position like Zito, vis a vis Ocwirk/Masopust, or alternatively considered the role in a wide enough way to take in peak for someone like Rummenigge, vis a vis Jairzinho/B.Laudrup even if they arguably didn't play as typical wingers or always as wingers during their own peak anyway, while Finney for club play at least would be more RW than LW for sure tbh) Maybe you (or anyone) can try for your own lists too, but yeah I've got something like this: GKs - Yashin, Schmeichel, Banks, G.Buffon, Shilton, Dasaev, Zoff, Grosics, Preud'homme, Fillol (not really a valid position for goal contribution analysis anyway though) RBs - Cafu, C.Alberto, Jorginho, D.Santos, Thuram, Zanetti, Vogts, Bergomi, Kaltz, Petrescu 'Defenders': Baresi, Moore, Figueroa, Krol. Scirea, Nesta, Passarella, Hierro, Cannavaro, Vierchowod LBs: P.Maldini, N.Santos, Lizarazu, Facchetti, Amoros, Cabrini, Breitner, Marzolini, R.Carlos, Bossis DMs: Beckenbauer, Rijkaard, Redondo, Vieira, Bozsik, Edwards, Sammer, Zito, Ocwirk, Masopust 'Midfielders': B.Charlton, Rivera, Matthaus, Neeskens, Didi, Liedholm, Falcao, Xavi, Deyna, Tigana AMs: Maradona, Platini, Zidane, Zico, M.Laudrup, Kopa, Hagi, Rivelino, Socrates, Hoddle Right wing: Messi, Figo, Garrincha, Matthews, Rummenigge, Jairzinho, B.Laudrup, Beckham, Littbarski, Robben Left wing: Best, C.Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Finney, Dzajic, Pires, Giggs, Neymar, Iniesta, Barnes Mediapunta: Pele, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Baggio, Gullit, Dalglish, Savicevic, Bergkamp, Schiaffino, Hidegkuti Attackers: Van Basten, Eusebio, Puskas, Ronaldo N, G.Muller, Weah, Henry, Shevchenko, Klinsmann, Romario
Brera was much more a writer (a superbe one indeed) than a football pundit (I think you agree with me on this). To him, a player (or a boxeur) had to be a kind of modern day Homeric hero to be a great, an all-round warrior, technique and talent were almost a guilt to him. Do you have the remaining part of the newspaper article you posted? I would be interested in Palumbo's opinion, he was Brera's arch-enemy among football journos, the advocate of the beautiful game against Brera's epic idea of sport.
Thanks mate - your post is probably worth two reps haha (being short but with two great pieces of info)!
Thinking about this though, for goal contribution role allocation purposes probably I'd feel making some hybrid categories would even work best (as well as keeping the outright ones)... eg Neeskens as DM/CM, Rivera as CM/AM, Platini as CM/AM too, Maradona and Zico as AM/Mediapunta....
Rummenigge among left wingers is not appropriate. He was at least a second striker. Maybe it is down to them refusing to leave out one between him and Lewandowski.
Yeah, he could be (if using hybrid categories like I was suggesting) RW/Mediapunta I guess, but it takes a very wide definition to see peak Rummenigge as winger it's true, although in younger times it's more feasible and still he operated somewhat like a wing forward (on either side) in some games I think didn't he (maybe more for Bayern/Germany than for Inter, even if he still used some wingplay as Inter Milan player). Arguably Mediapunta/Attacker for his peak could be appropriate I guess even though? For Messi I suppose RW/Mediapunta (but in certain point of career Mediapunta/Attacker).... For C.Ronaldo LW/Attacker.... For Best probably RW/LW (but it doesn't make a difference anyway re: goal contribution roles), even if he played other roles too.... Tigana another one for CM/DM I suppose....
yeah Messi and Cristiano as well in my opinion too. I mean, it is not appropriate to define them wingers. They are, respectively, an attacking midfielder/mediapunta playing preferably on the right and an a mediapunta/attacker displaced on the left half of the pitch. An old-fashion winger used to be something quite different from both of them. Same for Neymar.
Kicker Commentary for "World Class" players | BigSoccer Forum I guess this page gives a good summary for Rummenigge, with it already being said in 1978: "The Bavarian from Lippstadt embodies the modern playful central forward, who could just as well be listed among the two winger positions or among the offensive midfielders" And then several times more similar comments appear, and for example in December 1982 he's listed as world class in winger and central forward positions, and also in December 1981: "Karl-Heinz Rummenigge [Outside Right] He shows as much on the right wing as on the left side, in central attack or in offensive midfield. We could have easily ranked him 'world class' in all of these positions: Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, the superstar of the Bundesliga. We were content with ranking the captain of the national team in the highest category there is as central forward and outside right, a position where he was 'only' ranked as 'international class' last summer. The man from Lippstadt has become a great personality playing for Bayern München and is setting the highest standards. When the allrounder is coming from the right wing, when he has more space, his art of dribbling and his elegant ball control are captivating. Rummenigges crosses are 'pure candy' for his teammates Dieter Hoeness (Bayern) and Klaus Fischer or Horst Hrubesch (Germany). Karl-Heinz Rummenigge [Central Forward] The other central forwards of the Bundesliga should actually go green with envy. Or they have accepted it as irrevocable fact that for years the allround forward Karl-Heinz Rummenigge is stealing the show, relegating them to second place. The exceptional forward who feels like he is in the best form of his life (as he recently said to 'kicker') would even look better if he would convert his goal chances more optimal. This is the only thing he lacks a bit right now. 7 goals in the Bundesliga is actually not enough for a player like him. Instead, he bagged many goals playing for the national team, outranking Klaus Fischer and Horst Hrubesch considerably." I guess for my own original attempt, with top 10s, it would cause a re-shuffle headache to move him from RW haha (unless I conveniently just switched Savicevic into that position instead!). For this game for example I guess mediapunta is most appropriate, but also outright attacker in other games (when Hoeness didn't play): Bayern München vs. 1. FC Nürnberg 1981-1982 | Footballia
I knew we would agree on something 100% again soon lol anyway mate! What with me confirming I think Messi dribbles better than Puskas we are each moving to some posts in the opposite direction to before maybe (me having stuck up for Puskas goal contribution % wise in effect, while you praised the one of CR7 but like you say that doesn't mean you'd compare him with true wingers in that respect at least anyway), but on many things we would probably see it similar in reality I think.
I don't like how they composed the categories; many players were different from one another in terms of both role and function on the field. Too many players forced into the same category. Matthäus cannot be placed among deep-lying playmakers; it makes no sense at all. Didi doesn't strike me as a defensive midfielder; perhaps it would have been better to put him in the category where Lothar was placed. Maradona and Zico were advanced playmakers/creative forwards—I’d even dare to say second strikers. They should be included in the category where Pelé is, not alongside Zidane, Iniesta, and Platini. Even Pelé himself has nothing to do with Cruyff and Di Stefano.
Yeah, I understand what you mean, and I guess once we start to think of specific roles then we could end with 20 categories or something! Surely he varied in how attacking he played, but I would think box to box midfielder could be an appropriate category for Matthaus (which others like Neeskens or Vieira might be in, even if they never played as de facto number 10 like he did sometimes; maybe Masopust, although with a different style and from a different era, could arguably be in such a category too...but deep-lying playmakers might still be better for him and I know he too played more like a number 10 at periods in the 60s too, but I guess more like a classic playmaker and less like a dynamo anyway compared to Matthaus).
Trachta10 , What is your criteria for clutch goals and assists? Is it only the play that determined the final result of the game? Only winning scenarios? Do equalizers count for your list? And when a game has multiple lead changes (1-0, 1-1, 1-2, etc.), is only the final goal considered clutch? For example, in Argentina 3-3 France final at the 2022 World Cup: did only Mbappé have a clutch performance (for tying the game), or none of the players (because there was no winner in regular/extra time), or did Messi also have a clucth performance (for being decisive in the lead-up to the draw)?
Clutch here refers to any goal or assist that equalizes the score or gives the team the lead. For example, if a player scores the 1–0, even if the team later loses 1–2, that goal was clutch. In other words, the final result doesn’t matter, it includes any goal or assist the player produces that either puts the team ahead or ties the game when they are trailing by one.
In Mbappé’s case in 2022, two of his goals would be considered clutch: the 2–2 equalizer and then the 3–3 equalizer. A player could have three clutch goals, but it depends on the sequence. For example, in a 3–2 match, if the player scores the 1–0, the opponent equalizes to 1–1, the player makes it 2–1, the opponent equalizes to 2–2, and then the player scores the 3–2, all three goals count as clutch. However, you could also have a case where the team wins 3–2 and the player scores three goals but makes it 1–0, 2–0, and 3–0, and then the opponent brings it back to 3–2. In that case, only the player’s first goal (the 1–0) would be clutch.
As I have just said, I think all goals that, if removed, would change the result of a match should be considered clutch. This said, I would also add that in many cases there is more merit in scoring a 2-0 goal than than the first one, in terms of sheer goalscoring ability. Indeed first goal can be the result of a blunder by rivals, triggering a strong reaction by rivals themselves leading to an equalizer. The ability to score a second goal when rivals' pressure mount securing the result can a very very valuable one.
According your idea of clutch, I would say only the first one. But it is not guaranteed at all the first goal has been the most decisive for the win. In my experience, it has often happened that second goal has taken the wind out of the sail of a team determining its defeat.
But what’s your idea of clutch? Because I don’t see that you have a consistent method. What I mentioned seems better because it takes into account the sequence of how the goals happened. If you say that scoring the 2–0 is worth more than the 1–0, even if I accept that as true, I don’t see how you could build a something that makes sense with that. What you mentioned about “considering the G/A that changed the result” is more aligned with the “points won via G/A”, which takes into account how many points the team would have won without the player’s G/A https://www.messivsronaldo.app/detailed-stats/points-contribution/