You are really all over the place here. That’s what happens when you try and argue against definitions. A secondary purpose within the game could be to clear the ball forward. Why? So the striker can perform the primary function of scoring.
Again, G/A directly measures a player's ability to score or assist regardless of team context. Yes, teammates enable chances but it's a player's ability in goalscoring and playmaking that counts for those stats. On your hypothetical scenario and numbers that Messi is generating 0.75 G/A with 70% GC at Eibar and 1.50 with 60% at Barça, the G/A stats are counting for Messi's actual goals and assists while GC% are counting for his teammates performances. His higher G/A at Barça shows individual brilliance in goalscoring and playmaking, not just team quality inflating stats. If Messi's teammates at Eibar score less goals without his involvement increasing his GC% it again has nothing to do with Messi's performances but with the performances of his teammates. It is true that most goals are generated by the team but there are still players with more or less ability to score or create. Players have different levels of game reading, off the ball movement, positioning, speed, strength, power, technique, etc... And that cannot be reduced to the team collectively inflating his stats.
That is not purpose, that is strategy. There is one obejctive in football match: to score more goals than opponent. And you can go about achieving that in whatever way you want within the rule of the game. The singular obejctive of football opens door to value of each action. Actions that greately increase chance of this objective being fulfilled are deemed more valuable. This is why objectively creating a big chance is more valuable in football than a backpass to gk. Because it increases likelyhood of the singular objective being fulfilled. All actions are always judged in reference to the objective of football: tos cor emore goals. Saying that a secondary purpose of playing football is to put ball forward would imply that you can win a match by doing so. That you cna fulfill the singualr obejctive of playing. It is not. Putting ball forward might be a mean/way to win and fulfill the obejctive. That is in a realm of startegy om how to win. It is not purpose of football nor objective.
Let me guess - you think by re-stating my argument almost word for word and then framing it as your own, is somehow a win for you, right? You start your argument criticizing those overly focused on goals - I mention the literal purpose of the game is to score goals, specifically more goals than your opponent... and then you re-state my argument and think you've... won? Hey man, if it means that much to you, you win. Good job buddy.
I'll leave the discussion here because you clearly lack understanding of what you are speaking about. Strategy is an operation with the intended purpose of creating a plan to fulfill an objective. All these concepts are interconnected. If you think they operate in separate realms then you simply don't fundamentally understand the words or concepts you are trying to use.
Absolutely not, if Messi’s G/A is half at Eibar compared to Barcelona, it’s because Messi has worse teammates. If what you say were true, Messi should maintain the same G/A. The difference lies in the quantity (and quality) of opportunities Messi has at Eibar or Barcelona. If Messi receives the ball near the box and takes a shot that scores (whether at Eibar or Barcelona), up to that point you’re right that both situations are the same. The difference is that Barcelona, being a better team, will generate a higher quantity and quality of chances, which is why Messi will score or assist more. So obviously the G/A number is totally relative to the level of his teammates.
But his GC% turned up exactly because they were feeding him chances. If they were scoring or assisting another players instead of him his GC% would be lower. Perceive that the whole time this stat is about a player teammates, not about the player himself. Yeah, better teammates boost a player's scoring via high xA chances but not that it affects G/A, not GC%. As I said, G/A reflects individual ability to convert or create chances as seen with Mbappé capitalizing on Messi and Neymar. On the other hand, GC% rises when teammates score without the player's involvement as seen with Maradona, Carnevale and Careca proving GC% depends on teammates, not the player. You're overcomplicating GC% by citing situational factors but the core logic of GC% is simple. Lower teammate goal output without the player involvement increases GC%. The fact that Messi has a similar GC% at Barça and Argentina is due to his teammates varying contribution, not Messi's performance
I reiterate that GC% measures the player's share of a team's total goals (goals + assists divided by the team's number of goals), that is: a high GC% shows that teammates scored fewer goals independently and vice versa as seen in examples such as Maradona's high GC% with less productive teammates. I've acknowledged here several times that players complement each other (a playmaker's assists can increase with a good goalscorer) but this affects G/A, not GC%. If a player's teammate scores more goals independently, the team's goal total increases, which lowers the player's GC%. This statistic is essentially linked to the number of goals that teammates are able to score independently. Funny you say my view is "overly simplistic" when you're overcomplicating it by emphasizing multiple factors like role differences, dependency, etc.... GC%'s core mechanic is as simple as it gets: it rises when teammates contribute less to team's goals independently. Regardless of a player's role or team quality. I'll give the same example: Messi's high GC% at Argentina vs Barça reflects teammates' lower output, not his dependency or synergy. As you can see, GC% consistently isolates teammates performances across contexts
But his GC% turned up exactly because they were feeding him chances But his G/A p90 turned up exactly because they were feeding him chances A player's GC% increases if he has worse teammates. A player's G/A p90 increases if he has better teammates. The difference lies in HOW MUCH: G/A doubles while GC% barely changes, as I already said: "Having a good team increases your G/A more than it reduces your GC%, and having a weak team reduces your G/A more than it boosts your GC%. And the reason this is definitely the case is because football is a more collective sport than an individualistic one" Why would Messi have half the G/A playing at Eibar compared to Barcelona? Because the difference lies in the quantity and quality of the chances he gets, which are much higher at Barcelona. And why are they higher at Barcelona? Because it’s a better team with better players. You say G/A is something individual, but you’re isolating a situation where it does look individual in a vacuum, while the actual difference is in how many times the player is put in that situation. Example: At Barcelona, Messi receives an xA of 0.5 and scores At Eibar, Messi receives an xA of 0.5 and scores Up to that point, one can say, fine, it’s the same scenario and in both cases it depends on the player individually to score or not The difference between playing at Barcelona and at Eibar is that Messi at Barcelona will get 10 chances to score and at Eibar only 3, and probably the xA of the Barcelona chances will be much higher. and that’s not something that depends on the player himself, but rather something external and relative.
Wow, today you guys are with Macaca...hahahaha like 1000 messages...in a row my head is going to explode soon hahaha ! well, Total Football is always the correct answer no doubts about it . ! Why ?????? I know that Carlito 86 doesn't like it when I say this...about Total Football or very very complete player that Ruud Gullit, Mario Wolf Zagallo, Hans Peter Briegel, Edson Arantes Pelé (1970), Don Alfredo Di Stefano... were were better... for a football professional team... than C. Ronaldo, Luis Figo, Beckham, Savicevic, Roberto Baggio... Michael Laudrup, Ronaldinho Gaucho, Dennis Bergkamp, Zidane, Rijkaard, Koeman, Gerrard, Lampard, Totti, Brian Laudrup etc.. because I'm making these comparisons individually speaking. But at Football Manager There are interesting metrics related to the team's production numbers in general ... comparing with other teams in the Barclays Premier League or La Liga in the current season , for example... Long Range Balls ................ Team's position in the League in general between the possible 20 teams Passing accuracy % Crossing % Attacking Set-pieces % Defending Set-pieces % Shots on Target Ratio % dribbles completed per 90 minutes played ......% Defensive Blocks % Slide blocks % Tackles won % Interceptions % Headers Won % defensive covers % clearances % Distance covered % winning the second Ball % Key-Passes % Pre-Key-Passes % Big chances created ....% Saves % all these metrics matter a lot for a professional football team all these metrics involve surgical precision accuracy % In Football Manager, they show you metric by metric... what position your team is within. So, Di Stefano... doing the entire job of 3 normal and lazy players... is contributing... a lot to the team's overall average in the League metrics . On the other hand, Henry's missed several crosses always with his left foot... is negatively contributing to this metric of "Open-play" Crossing % in the League team-metrics ... Henry ... does ...at Arsenal pretty bad in this sense of the game . Another example .... more clear ...for you guys here on this forum Joaquín Sánchez and Denilson Show ... made Real Betis one of the best La Liga leaders in dribbles completed " team-metric " Top-5 per 90 minutes played . But on the other hand, Joaquin and Denilson show... because they weren't Total Footballers in essence... they made Betis... fall significantly in all defensive metrics of professional football and Headers Won % "team-metric" also ... "! Total Football influences everything in the game.
.... .. Wow, today you guys are with Macaca...hahahaha like 1000 messages...in a row my head is going to explode soon hahaha ! well, Total Football is always the correct answer no doubts about it . ! Why ?????? I know that Carlito 86 doesn't like it when I say this...about Total Football or very very complete player that Ruud Gullit, Mario Wolf Zagallo, Hans Peter Briegel, Edson Arantes Pelé (1970), Don Alfredo Di Stefano... were were better... for a football professional team... than C. Ronaldo, Luis Figo, Beckham, Savicevic, Roberto Baggio... Michael Laudrup, Ronaldinho Gaucho, Dennis Bergkamp, Zidane, Rijkaard, Koeman, Gerrard, Lampard, Totti, Brian Laudrup etc.. because I'm making these comparisons individually speaking. But at Football Manager There are interesting metrics related to the team's production numbers in general ... comparing with other teams in the Barclays Premier League or La Liga in the current season , for example... Long Range Balls ................ Team's position in the League in general between the possible 20 teams Passing accuracy % Crossing % Attacking Set-pieces % Defending Set-pieces % Shots on Target Ratio % dribbles completed per 90 minutes played ......% Defensive Blocks % Slide blocks % Tackles won % Interceptions % Headers Won % defensive covers % clearances % Distance covered % winning the second Ball % Key-Passes % Pre-Key-Passes % Big chances created ....% Saves % all these metrics matter a lot for a professional football team all these metrics involve surgical precision accuracy % In Football Manager, they show you metric by metric... what position your team is within. So, Di Stefano... doing the entire job of 3 normal and lazy players... is contributing... a lot to the team's overall average in the League metrics . On the other hand, Henry's missed several crosses always with his left foot... is negatively contributing to this metric of "Open-play" Crossing % in the League team-metrics ... Henry ... does ...at Arsenal pretty bad in this sense of the game . Another example .... more clear ...for you guys here on this forum Joaquín Sánchez and Denilson Show ... made Real Betis one of the best La Liga leaders in dribbles completed " team-metric " Top-5 per 90 minutes played . But on the other hand, Joaquin and Denilson show... because they weren't Total Footballers in essence... they made Betis... fall significantly in all defensive metrics of professional football and Headers Won % "team-metric" also ... "! Total Football influences everything in the game.
but Chances created completed per 90 minutes or Passes in the final third completed % don't counts for you ???
.............. .. The main point is to be completely impartial... for example... I agree with you, dear mate... that Diego, Platini Michel , Bergkamp, Baggio, or Zico... produced passes of greater technical quality, yes, without a doubt... ! But... players who aren't among your darling favorites... also... like Ruud Gullit, Gerd Muller...Puskas .... Di Stefano ...Heynches Jupp for example Gerd... has greater passes from Plays one-twos .. or Plays with Back to Goal or through passes to the future point " Killer Balls " ! This is what makes me angry
......... .. Just out of curiosity, Frank 73. What do you think so about David Beckham, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Rooney and Paul Scholes? ...for me ... i prefer ...Scholes ...Rooney the other 3 were very very deceptive players on my view ! But for you ????? Toninho Cerezo was much better than all them ????
Careca, alemao, carnevale did as much as they could in napoli.now chances of them scoring more goals without maradona's contribution was quite low.contrastingly if 'they' produced more scoring chances for maradona,his gc% would go up.it can go both ways.
At such situation both the goal and assist are 'clutch'.so whenever an assist is there behind a clutch goal,the assist mandatorily becomes clutch.and it can be opta /non opta.doesn't matter.
He understands perfectly well IMO, having read back your exchanges. He said "more goals than the opponent" before you did, and understood that all the actions of players on the pitch (in defending, keeping possession, making openings or overlaps, dribbling etc etc) are done to help the team towards that objective. My Grandad always beat me in Chess just as I was getting ''excited' about the moves I was about to make near his end of the board btw lol (because I suppose I was doing the equivalent of sending many players forward and/or taking pot shots depending on how you look at it - football is not totally like chess though obviously - not to be too critical of my teenage self though as he won once vs his 'Kasperov' Chess computer on level 8, the top level, lol, even if that's surely far from being the same as really winning vs Kasperov!!). Franz Beckenbauer tends to be rated over Gerd Muller (not by everyone to be fair). Bobby Charlton tends to be rated over Geoff Hurst for sure and normally Jimmy Greaves too. Stanley Matthews is pretty much universally rated over Nat Lofthouse, Stan Mortensen or Tommy Lawton (and he surely set them all up to score many of their goals, or several at least). Gianni Rivera is rated over Pierino Prati. The best/greatest player of USSR is considered to be Lev Yashin, a goalkeeper. Tottenham Hotspur's best players of the 80s are accepted to be Osvaldo Ardiles and Glenn Hoddle, not Steve Archibald and Garth Crooks (I know in some seasons Hoddle will have outscored them and he might even be said to be better at finishing) etc etc etc, so most fans do accept football roles are nuanced and there can be great and important players in all positions, and sometimes high scoring strikers will not be the best players in their teams. @Isaías Silva Serafim in @Sexy Beast 's example (hypothetical, even if believable/realistic probably, I know) Messi's G/A tally was double in Barcelona what it was in Eibar, and you skipped over that again I think, leaping to criticise/attack GC%.
I would say Peter Schmeichel for example made several 'clutch' saves (during Euro 92 Final, FA Cup 1999 semi-final, 95/96 match vs Newcastle when Man United won 1-0 for example in title race closing stages). They weren't late in the game but Platini's assists to Boniek vs Man Utd and Bordeaux were pretty 'clutch' considering game situations and final results I'd think, given they weren't 'normal' passes and left Boniek with clear chances, with Platini having been deep in the field. Also this one vs Aston Villa, which was for a late winning goal (albeit with Juventus' home leg still to come) and again left Boniek clear on goal (even if it wasn't a foregone conclusion as such that he'd score that one or a near certainty 'expected goals' wise I guess) ECC 1982-83. Aston Villa - Juventus. Zbigniew Boniek scores.
Demonstrably false. He stated strategy and purpose operate in different realms. That's a fundamental misconception of meta-concepts that form the basis of his argument. He's treating all conceptual distinctions as implying operational independence. That's literally false. To have a strategy without purpose is to cut off strategy from it's definition, where purpose is inherently applied. To claim he understood perfectly what he was saying has already been proven false. His earlier mention of goals being the primary objective is of note but that doesn't mean he isn't obfuscating it's value. His stance that others are too focused on goals and his view of the game represents a more nuanced understanding is not only antithetical to the metaphysical notion of understanding itself, which serves to share understanding with others, and not lord it over them. One functions as the true purpose of understanding - to materialize the operation of forming a thought internally and expressing it for others' cognition - the other, what he did, was intellectual vanity.
I feel like you may also be using AI, or perhaps asking this guy (1:55) for his opinion on the matter lol Maybe I'm wrong though (on using AI), but I do see that he did add a part to your original definition of the aim of football being to score goals - crucially he added that it's to score more goals than the opponent (and he also seems to understand that goalscorers don't score their goals in a vacuum and that actions of their team-mates, particularly the one who sets them up, but also those who progress the ball into the advantageous area or those who prevent the other team from getting the ball into the net in the closing stages even, can be determinative too).
I'll take that as a backhanded compliment. I'll clear the air for you: That writing was all me. But I'll take it as a compliment that the logic is hard to refute, so thanks.