Goal contribution of the best players

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Trachta10, Nov 4, 2020.

  1. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I agree that players complement each other, but if you have two players of the same level in attack, the team will play based on both. While if one is clearly superior to the others, the team will play for the best attacking partner. For example, let's say Messi and Cristiano played on the same team. The GC% of both would drop drastically because sometimes the team would look for Ronaldo and sometimes they would look for Messi depending on the game situation.But Messi has never played with a striker at his level.

    Only regarding Maradona and Shearer I say that it is possible to measure how much the fact that they had worse teammates inflated their GC%. Just look at how many goals their teammates produced that they weren't involved in. Statistics is about the denominator, not the numerator. If Careca and Carnevalle had generated more goals, Maradona's GC% would be lower. As they generated few, Maradona's GC% was high.

    Messi had a higher GC% in Argentina because there he had Higuaín and Di Maria instead of Suarez and Neymar. They produced fewer goals without Messi's involvement and therefore Messi's GC% was higher. This example is perfect to illustrate this. Maradona in Argentina had Valdano and Burruchaga in place of Careca and Carnevalle. And so on
     
  2. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    How you do not understand that you are compeltely trashing your previous argument on gc% is beyond me?

    You are adding context beyond ga per game to excuse ga per game as being wrong.

    Yet gc% should be true withojt any context.

    Shearer must have lower gc% than Ronaldo? Otherwise it is flawed statistic.

    But when Messi has higher ga per game than Ronaldo, then it is about who did what and when. It doesnt matter.

    If you cant logically understand your fundamental mistake in thinking and reasoning, i cant help you at all.

    Still

    Messi has better ga per game.

    Either Messi then is factually better by better statistic than Cristiano in ucl.

    Or you drop standard that gc% MUST yield perfect reflection of players abilities.
     
  3. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The difference is that goals per game or per 90 is the number of times the player participated in a goal divided by the number of games or minutes he played. GC% is about how many goals the player's teammates scored without his involvement. If a teammate of Maradona scores 10 goals without his involvement, the GC% is 1. If the teammate is involved in 50 without Maradona's involvement, his GC% drops dramatically. P Note that in both cases, it is not Maradona's performance that influences this number, but the performance of his teammates that alters the value. Do you realize how problematic this is?
     
  4. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    All stats needs context. But GC% is not about the player. It's about his teammates. It goes up or down depending on how many goals your teammates have scored without your involvement.
     
  5. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    yes , Diego Maradona at His peak ...


    He
    Delivered much more defensive work
    and playmaking, worked patiently.

    Long-range balls and crossing with greater technical quality and vision.

    Maradona in
    1985...
    World Cup qualifiers...

    Diego...destroyed

    1 14 9- 5-85 Buenos Aires Paraguay 1-1
    36 1 15 14- 5-85 Buenos Aires Chile 2-0
    37 2 17 26- 5-85 San Cristóbal Venezuela 3-2 World Cup Qualifier
    38 17 2- 6-85 Bogotá Colombia 3-1 World Cup Qualifier
    39 1 18 9- 6-85 Buenos Aires Venezuela 3-0 World Cup Qualifier
    40 18 16- 6-85 Buenos Aires Colombia 1-0 World Cup Qualifier
    41 18 23- 6-85 Lima Peru 0-1 World Cup Qualifier
    42 18 30- 6-85 Buenos Aires Peru 2-2 World Cup Qualifier


    Diego A Total Footballer version 1985-1987 . !



    Ronaldo Nazario's peak

    is like Thierry Henry peak...

    But a little bit better

    than Henry...

    Ronaldo Nazario

    had more pure talent, technique in general with ambi-dextrous feet ..Henry don't finalize correctly any crossing with left-foot 15 (1) , and skill than Thierry Henry...

    Henry suffered from total haste and rashness.
     
  6. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Yes, Maradona delivered more playmaking but Ronaldo delivered more goals. Which do you think is more important?
     
    Wiliam Felipe Gracek repped this.
  7. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  8. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    both ..among with the whole defensive job ...



    the main 3 parts of the game . "!
     
  9. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    GA per game is influenced by performance of teammates as well.

    It doesnt work around the problem you think it does.

    Clearly it doesnt, because otherwise GA per game would be stable for player across his career. It is not. It varies even more than gc%.

    Player can create a chance:

    If a teammate scores, it registers as an assist

    If the teammate doesnt score, it doesnt.

    That is literally out of the control as well. Goals do not work around that neither A goalscorer is dependent on delivery and opportunity.

    If ga per game does work around that problem, or goals, then Messi is better than Cristiano in ucl. Period.
     
  10. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    And if someones teammates are scoring a lot of goal each game, what does that tell you about difficulty of scoring?

    If you teammates are scoring a lot, it follows that you should to.

    It is just comparison. No different than comparing ga per game of any two players. You are doing that all the time.
     
  11. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
    El dia que Maradona humillo a todo Colombia!!! Baile del Diez 1985

    Is funny

    there in that part
    that Maradona
    losing a bad easier goal
    directly with right foot ..there on the box


    or Argentine commentator of this entire game
    to protect Diego completely
    says there:

    He can also make or
    commit
    mistakes - why not?

    He probably did this to prove that he's a simple human like us .
     
  12. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    1985 Home Maradona vs Chile
     
  13. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    In fact it does. GC% is about a player's teammates, not about him. It is a statistic based on the denominator, not the numerator. You can't escape this. Maradona had a higher GC% because his teammates scored fewer goals without his involvement
     
  14. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Again, whether my teammates are scoring more or fewer goals without my involvement has nothing to do with my performance, only theirs. The same player can have a different GC% based on how many goals his teammates score without his involvement. This has nothing to do with the player.
     
  15. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I'll give you an example: When Neymar was at Santos, his GC% was high. When he went to Barça his GC% dropped. What changed is that at Barça, Messi was scoring goals that didn't depend on him. There wasn't one in Santos. The player is the same. What has changed is that teammates are now more goal-scoring. This has nothing to do with Neymar. It has to do with Messi. Rooney increased his GC% a lot when Cristiano left ManUtd. And it's not because Rooney has improved as a player. But because there was a player who scored 30 goals per season and now he doesn't have that anymore. In both cases, the statistic isn't about the player. It's about who plays with him.
     
  16. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    #Maradona vs Paraguay (1985 )
     
  17. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    I Know that you are very very Fan Of Ronaldo Nazario de Lima , Romário, Ronaldinho Gaucho, Neymar Jr ...Bebeto
    Rivaldo ...
    etc.etc.etc... brazilian players...etc..



    some of them delivered more dribbling skills repertoire and art... yes
    some of them delivered...more goals............yes ...


    But in terms of Total Footballism... and to be a very very complete player

    Zico, Diego, Michel Platini, Gullit, Paul Breitner, Lothar Matthaus, Brehme, Briegel, 80's etc., etc., etc.
    even Mario Wolf Zagallo 50's 60's
    delivered much more than these Brazilian players from the 90s, 2000s, 2010s that you like too much and that you are one bigger fan of them .



    it is like Valdo spoken about Zico vs Ronaldinho Gaucho " by Valdo meu menino do Gremio FBA "
     
  18. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    So you think Steven Gerrard were better than R9 because he defended, built, created and scored goals while R9 only scored goals?
     
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You’re always sneaking this guy into conversations he does not belong in

    Mario zagallo scored 5 goals for his country(0.15 goals per game)
    He was a winger who contributed defensively but 5 goals is completely diabolical especially playing for the Brazilian NT of that time

    Do you think 15 tackles you found on two match comps will save him?

    And you contradict yourself by referencing Zico.
    He was not known for his defensive output and in fact not at all
     
    Wiliam Felipe Gracek repped this.
  20. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    ....
    ..
    no way man !

    Zico... did it so many many interceptions . !

    Zico vs Ponte Preta: Campeonato Brasileiro 1980

    Zico playing as a third-man in the midfield zone



    3- Tackles won %
    3- Interceptions .. %

    1 - Pre- Assist(Opta )
    Long range Balls ..


    1 - Goal... first time shots with great accuracy %



    is funny ..that Zico ...

    when He tackles won % ...

    then He tries a dribble like Johan Cruyff .... " Cruyff's turns "



    Go to 6: 00 minutes at video there ....


    He tackles one opponent there ... and then ...give the show ..



    What a Show !
     
  21. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    no , I'm not !


    Ronaldinho Gaucho, Ronaldo Nazario de Lima, Romário...
    and Adriano Drunk

    They never had a period of delivering that much at whole defensive work...

    they only

    worked sporadically
    in defense...

    with rare defensive actions " completed "




    ...........
    ...

    Zico ..when He plays as a Shadow Striker or Second Striker ..delivered really much lesser in defensive actions ..yes


    But comparing ..with Romário ..Ronaldinho Gaucho ..Nazario ...de Lima ,..Drunk Adriano ..Henry ..

    remains a true oasis and revolutionary in defense

    compared to these all lazy players
     
  22. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    No...,Gerrard ... was slower ,

    without agility

    without mobility


    without acceleration

    without dribbling skills


    Like Rijkaard type . !
     
  23. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
    Steven Gerrard


    863 Matches

    212 ..Goals

    178... Assists ...


    honestly ...

    jogador bem meia-boca ... e comum .. !


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  24. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    Cerezo ...much better than Gerrard Steven !
     
  25. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

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