Goal contribution of the best players

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Trachta10, Nov 4, 2020.

  1. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    What is the source for the ratings?
     
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
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  3. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #2479 carlito86, Jun 27, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2024
    puck says here they take the average of various newspapers,magazines and fan publications
    Salvatore Bagni wasn’t a native of Naples nor was he a product of their academy
    There is simply no evidence of bias being a factor here


    fair enough he represented the Italian NT but so did
    Gianfranco Zola
    Giordano
    Ferrara
    De Napoli
    Carnevale
    Francini
    Massimo Crippa
    Luca Fusi

    But yet it was only Bagni who garnered the superior media ratings
    Not in a off season but in consecutive seasons

    maradona was never more famous(ever) than he was in 1985/86 and 1986/87
    His legacy was built on this dare I say almost entirely

    for Bagni to have superior media ratings in those seasons is not something that can just easily be dismissed no matter what publications are used
     
  5. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024







    ........................
    Honvéd/Ferencváros 6 x 2 Botafogo RJ Brasil
    Hungary 4 x 5 Belgium
    Sel. Budapest 7 x 3 Lyon
    Sel. Budapest 3 x 0 Sporting
    Honvéd 2 x 2 Tatabányai
    Hungary 3 x 1 Yugoslavia
    Honvéd 2 x 2 Voros Lobogó
    Hungary 2 x 0 Austria
    Honvéd 4 x 2 Saarbrucken
    Honvéd 5 x 5 Real Madrid
    Honved 4 x 3 Barcelona
    Honved 2 x 1 Milan
    Honvéd 2 x 3 Roma
    Honvéd 6 x 3 Palermo
    Honvéd 3 x 3 Athletic Bilbao
    Honvéd 2 x 1 Internazionale


    in Brazil games :
    Honvéd 4 x 6 Flamengo
    Honvéd 4 x 2 Botafogo RJ
    Honvéd 6 x 4 Flamengo
    Honvéd 2 x 6 Comb. Botafogo RJ/Flamengo
    Honvéd 3 x 5 Flamengo
    Honvéd 1 x 1 Flamengo


    These were the results of Budapest Honved a little before for a Tour in Brazil so Honestly in these friendlies there were a lot of difficult teams to play against at that time.... In my mind sometimes...I think that a team led by David Beckham or Frank Lampard or Rio Ferdinand or Ronaldinho Gaucho or Kaká would lose every match in my opinion .... ... Nowadays this is another big mistake that the Majority of the people always makes when talking about football which in the past was much easier than today.. . Join in this wave of these Debiloids and then this Wave swallows you ugly and without massage.. ( wrong mind of youngsters nowadays)



    Honestly, there were some highlights from these Budapest Honved matches in Brazil against Flamengo on TV in Brazil... Botafogo, together with Santos FC and Vasco da Gama... were the main base of the Brazilian team from 1958 to 1970... that won 3 World Cups Almost in a row .


    players like .... Nilton Santos ... Zagallo .... Didi ... Garrincha ... Dida ... Zizinho ......etc .. etc ..

    Honestly a team led by David Beckham playing in Brazil against these guys would lose 6 x 0 or 10 x 0 in my humble opinion....



    mainly for the behaviour of David Beckham against Brazil in 2002 . honestly i think this always .
     
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  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Interesting to know about the highlights of Honved on Brazilian TV - I saw this video quite a long time ago (Honved & Ferenvaros combined XI it seems actually, vs Botafogo):

    Honved played games with English clubs too: losing a famous one to Wolves but in bad weather - here are highlights from another one vs West Bromwich Albion:


    Beckham did have an injury that affected in 2002 him to be fair it should be said maybe though:
    JOE.ie - Sports injuries explained: The broken metatarsal
     
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  7. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    even ..... hahahaha !! for sure without injuries David Beckham will keep going losing the matches against ... Flamengo ... Botafogo ... Vasco ... and Santos FC mainly playing in Brazil these matches .... 6 x 0 ... or 10 x 0 .... Beckham hasn't Power Of Fire to beat these brazilian players ... !
     
  8. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    yes .... i saw too ... dear mate ..... has two pre-assists by Puskas and one Goal into this game . i saw aswell .
     
  9. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    Do you know a website that has all games played by Brazilian clubs including friendlies since 1950?
     
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  10. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    not ....
    No.. I have never seen this site not in my whole life . ! i see another article sometimes ,
     
  11. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    https://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1972-1973#country
    Another elo ranking I found. Confirms again the idea that the eredivisie was overall fluke league before

    Season - Avg elo of top 10 (rank) - Standard deviation in % (how much is the league unbalanced)
    1964/65 - 11th - 4.9% (8th most balanced league)
    1965/66 - 10th - 6.6% (18th most balanced league out of 30)
    1966/67 - 10th - 7.8% (21st most balanced league)
    1967/68 - 10th - 7.6%
    1968/69 - 10th - 8.0%
    1969/70 - 9th - 9.1%
    1970/71 - 7th - 10.1% (Netherlands had by far the most unbalanced league of the best European leagues)
    1971/72 - 7th - 10.8%
    1972/73 - 7th - 11.1%
    .
    1981/82 - 7th - 8.0%
    1982/83 - 8th - 7.0%
    1983/84 - 9th - 8.4%
    Plotting this data in a graph alongside the average elo gives us this:
    upload_2024-6-30_13-33-5.png
    Whenever Eredivisie "gets better" by increasing its elo thanks to Ajax and some other clubs' performances in Europe, their unbalance increases too, why? A logic explanation is that only the top clubs get better, the middle table teams and downwards don't strengthen in that time. Having the top 4 clubs good with an abyssal gulf between them and the others doesn't make the league a top league. Typically, the top 4 leagues in 1967/68 all have lower standard deviation than 5%, because the whole league is strong, not just the top clubs.
    And as a certain someone said, this is actual statistic made by an actual data scientist. Not the baseless opinion of a casual.
     
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  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #2487 PuckVanHeel, Jun 30, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2024
    You keep on being inane (and again, further back in time Elo for clubs is very flawed; also today mid-table teams don't play each other). 'World Soccer' was not a baseless opinion - it was literally the first issue I picked from the archive (January 1973).

    The assesment by 21st Club is not a baseless opinion. It is not hard to imagine how that looks for the 1970s, when pretty much all of the players stayed in the Benelux itself. Again, the 200th-400th best players ranked 8th-10th in 2018, close to Argentina. Now it is 5th or 6th (or 7th at worst). Saying it was the 30th league in 1972 (25th, 35th), your first claim, is ridiculous. There are also fewer UEFA countries and leagues in that time, before the break-up of Europe. Mexico and USA have not made an entry yet. That makes you a dubious and hostile figure.

    Five different clubs reached UEFA Cup finals or better. There aren't even ten leagues that could say the same. Meanwhile, they reached World Cup finals with about 20 of the best players not going and leaning more than ever on players outside the Big Two or Big Three. In what universe is this below Uruguay and the 25th-35th league?

    Your stat twisting, while everyone knows ClubElo has flaws today, let alone for further back in time, is indeed baseless.

    Imagine almost all of these players staying in the country:
    https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr55/en/

    Ranked 8th for player quality in 2019, the wider pool of players - not outlandish to think this was quite a bit better in the 1970s (surely, Colombia falls away for that time, probably also France).
     
  13. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    This elo started for every European league since 1955/56, it has 9 full seasons of international games prior, that's largely enough to build an accurate elo ranking.
    30th by 1970 was NOT my first claim neither this ranking which I MYSELF criticized as being dodgy was the first one I used, neither it was even in my first post.
    When Cruyff was in the league, only 2 different clubs reached UEFA Cup finals (Ajax 5 times, Feyenoord 1 time). So this argument makes no sense.

    In the same time, 4 different English clubs reached UEFA Cup finals, 4 different Italian clubs did so, 7 Spanish clubs did so, 8 German clubs did so, and 2 French clubs did so and 3 Scottish clubs did so.
    Again and again and again I MYSELF said that this ranking was dodgy, that's not a reason for you to ignore 3 other sources being your beloved UEFA ranking, and 2 elo rankings made by data analysts.
    I already asked you to tell me what flaws did clubelo have, you never answered me. "Everyone" :ROFLMAO: cite me those people.
    upload_2024-6-30_15-53-39.png
    I don't understand your logic, the Netherlands literally have less players playing abroad than the likes of NIGERIA and Uruguay (what an example :ROFLMAO:). Netherlands today according to a well-trained clubelo.com ranking is still the 7th best league in Europe, while most of the Dutch players play there. And it still is an unbalanced league with both PSV and Feyenoord being 140 Elo points ahead of the 3rd best team. Even Bundesliga whose popularly known as being a farmers league, no clubs are that far away.
    upload_2024-6-30_15-57-17.png
    Even when taking the ranking you seem to talk about where the Netherlands are 8th, they're behind Argentina, who also had a golden generation the 1970s, so according to your logic they would be a better league when that's not what you said earlier.
     
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  14. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    upload_2024-6-30_15-59-10.png
    Really funny indeed to see that when something suits you, you say "it has been proven by actual scientists" but when TWO different elo ratings, that don't suit your claim, made by people whose job is actually to make those analyzes, it's "inane and bordering on the evil".
     
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  15. Ftblabsolute

    Ftblabsolute Member

    France
    Mar 17, 2024
    What's more you use that source to say Netherlands was top 5 leagues in the world because rn when the national team's bad Netherlands still export many good players, but when it's Brasil who's literally topping (by far) the chart with a 100x less stacked national team than ever you don't consider the source. Funny how you change your standards.
     
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  16. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    First 300 Official Matches

    Pelé
    Maradona
    Puskás
    Cruyff (source: @barenftt on twitter)

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Most Assists (Opta+Non-Opta)

    Pelé: 487
    Messi: 458
    Cruyff: 458
    Puskás: 440


    Team's Goals Assisted (Removing the player's goals from the team's goals)

    Pelé: 37.61%
    Maradona: 35.63%
    Cruyff: 33.23%
    Messi: 31.12%
    Puskás: 29.29%
    Zico: 28.97%


    Goals and Assists relative to team's goals
    (This time, to calculate Assist%, I don't remove the player's goals from the team's total goals. The same logic with Goal%, it's just goals/team goals)

    and my Rating is the multiplication of both values (Goal%*Assist%)
    [​IMG]

    Best ten years period
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
    Is penalty win count as a non-opta assist?
     
  19. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    yes
     
  20. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    penalties suffered ???? you count as an assist ??? really ???

    is wrong on my view




    indirect assist as Diego Maradona to Careca against Parma ...is okay !
     
  21. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
    I disagree, penalty win should count as an assist
     
  22. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    Really ????
     
  23. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    Direct Assists ... Indirect Assists .... Direct Pre-Assists .....Indirect Pre-Assists ... is okay using the same criteria to everyone Players on the World


    but
    penalties suffered are key plays ...not pure assists .. !!! well ... as it is not Official by Fifa

    so no problems ..
     
  24. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Where "direct pre-assists" and indirect pre-assist compare to winning a PK? a PK won worth 0.76 of goal on average, that is more than basically all open play assists value, let alone a pre-assist.
     
  25. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    How many direct assists has Maradona ????
    How many indirect assists has Maradona ???
    How many Pre-assists ( and indirect pre-assists too ) has Maradona ???
    How many penalties suffered ???? has Maradona ???


    and

    How many direct assists has Ronaldinho Gaucho????
    How many indirect assists has Ronaldinho ???
    How many Pre-assists ( and indirect pre-assists too ) has Ronaldinho ???
    How many penalties suffered ???? has Ronaldinho ???
     

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