Goal contribution for the national team best players

1.Where did you get no of minutes for the old players ? And how accurate and reliable are they?

2. Assists weren't recorded accurately in previous eras . Where did you get the assists numbers for Pele, Muller, Zico etc? (For Maradona's there's a video on youtube with all his assists (32) for National team :- )

3. Where did you get messi's assists stats? you got the data from Opta? I assume you're taking that from Transfermarkt - inflates assists a lot . For example, they provided him 3 more assists in WC. Opta gave him 5. Transfermarkt includes deflected ,rebound etc as assists. Unless we get Opta data for messi, you can't correctly say how many assists he has.

Then your estimation of by first dividing (g/a per 90 min) by goal rate is not also correct . It assumes their teams were scoring at the same rate linearly when they were not on the field in the match.There are a lot of discrepancies like that in this.

 

This video includes unofficial games. That makes (of course) Trachta his count incorrect.

 

This guy calculated min 33 assists for Pele (list of all matches with goals,assists for NT)

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It differs from your data .
If we count by his data, pele had 77 g+33 a , in 7666 minutes(as per you)
So by your method ( though its incorrect imo) , Pele has
G+A contribution : (110*90/7666) / 2.554 = 50.56 %

Messi's team scored 252 goals . So his team's goal rate was 1.826 not 1.819
Then only by your numbers,
G+A contribution: 48.87% to 51.05%

Not to mention, the assist data from Transfermarkt (which you're using here probably) is inflated always. They gave him 3 more assists in WC , around 20 more league assists compared to OPTA. Transfermarkt includes rebounded, deflected and every types as assists . Even after that,you seem to increase the inflated assist number by one.

Again here Batistuta played 77 international matches (54 goals) (http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/batistuta-intlg.html ) So most probably you're minutes numbers are also wrong.

This video has all 56 (54 official) goals of Batistuta


He scored 2 goals vs Slovakia league xi in 1996 which is not considered official. And his team scored 6 goals in that match.

So if you count those two goals to make it 56 goals (you increased the number by 1 here too), his team's gpg was 132/78= 1.692

Considering your assists no to be correct (god knows what's the source) ,
g+a contribution : 53.92%


These are only few examples. Most probably there are similiar discrepancies for other player's numbers too.

And again, what's your source of the minutes and other numbers for older players and how reliable/correct are they? I doubt.
Besides it seems that you are manipulating the data a bit , decreasing/inventing numbers for older players whereas inflating it for some particular players like Messi , Batistuta ... Like , you have some sort of urge to increase the stat for Argentine players in particular .

 

It is blatantly incorrect with unofficial games added (national team vs club) for certain players, and not others, but of course some will eat this with a silver spoon.

If we add unofficial games then Pele has over 100 caps. I have seen it added in overviews.

 

Yeah. This site has all matches of Brazil national team ever (including those unofficial ones. Pele's ones too)
http://torcida.com.ru/allmatch/?fbclid=IwAR0_y5e34gAWzvW1e9hOG080O6c5V10lRTVL0pmqmTrAoo9o0PeXmjnmv8Y

There exists such matches for a lot of these players .


His numbers has lot of discrepancies as i pointed out above.

 

Btw, I just counted the no of goals by Argentina with Messi on field.

Transfermarkt inflates stats, so we don't know his actual assists data. For example, they gave him 3 more assists in WC than he actually had.
So he has 70 goals. At Maximum 44 assists (47- '3' inflated ones we already know). His team scored 229 goals with him on the field.
Messi's actual G+A contribution (at Maximum) : 114/229 = 49.78%

And lastly, there are lot of Variables going on the field which fluctuates these stats a lot. I'll use three players for demonstrating this.

For example , as per his data , Maradona's G+A contribution : 49.55%
Pele's G+A (min) contribution as per the source i've given above : 50.56%
Messi's G+A contribution (at Maximum) = 49.78%

Maradona had 3 PK goals as per this video : https://www.youtube.com/results?sea...+goals+fro+argentina&ab_channel=Jwasc92Futbol
Maradona's team was scoring at rate of 1.472 without those PK .
Maradona's nonPk G+A per 90 min = (34+33 - 3) *90/8084 =0.7125

I had a link (unable to find it now) which listed each of goals along with which was Penalty .Pele had 77 PK goals in official matches, 7 PK goals for Brazil . [I will provide it if i find it. Maybe ,some user here has it too. Without those 7 Pk, Pele's team was scoring at rate of 2.478 .
Pele's nonPk G+A per 90 min = ( 77+33 -7)*90/7,666 = 1.209
Messi has 14 PK goals for Argentina.

So if we count non-pK G+A contributions :

Pele : 1.209/ 2.478 = 48.79%
Maradona : 0.7125/1.472 = 48.40%
Messi : (70-14 + 44)/(229-14) = 46.51%

See ?? Messi's rate now gone behind Maradona's w/o PKs.
These percentages Fluctuates a lot due to slight change in various variables .
I only used Messi, pele, maradona above as example . I'm sure similiar will be the case (discrepancies) for the numbers of lot of these Players .
Not to mention , only god knows where he is inventing these numbers of minutes,assists for pre 21st century players and how accurate/reliable are these. You used different sources for different players which also generates discrepancies


Lastly,Football is more than numbers .And these numbers are not even normalised due to lack of reliable and consistent common source for all players.
So he should stop bs with these numbers.
Btw, one common pattern (perhaps only meaningful thing) we can see from these is that all elite forwards has a direct contribution of around 50% of team goals scored .

 

They counted two unofficial games of Batistuta there . One against Solvakia League 6-0 on 22/ 6/95, where he scored twice.
In 98/99 season too,they calculated one extra match

Saw it . But they didn't mention their sources . Btw ,they got pele's position wrong as typical

Different sources give different data for even a current player. Transfermarkt inflates assists as i already said.

And see? You are using data from varieties of sources to make these numbers . That's where the problem is. While numbers for some players are getting inflated because of that, its decreasing for some others .

 

Actually Pelé had more according @TomasRosolino, he counted all assists from all matches in the Brazilian NT (friendlies and not), some maybe are wide assists or I don't know, but he credited and calculated most of the matches, different than the user Lucas... who made a lazy work.

https://www.goal.com/br/notícias/todas-as-assistencias-da-selecao-brasileira-desde-1930-veja/108mvistgksqy1kefgvujl9lvm?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=brfb

Você sabe quem são os jogadores que mais participaram de gols na história da seleção brasileira? 🇧🇷⚽

Em um levantamento inédito, somamos gols e assistências desde 1930! São 90 anos de craques! 😎

Tem o Fenômeno, o Baixinho, o Furacão da Copa e o Rei, claro! 👑🐐 pic.twitter.com/WCUPh4apJB

— GOAL Brasil (@GoalBR) October 9, 2020

Great infographic showing all of Pelé’s 64 Assists for Brazil, in 114 games. Including unofficial friendlies.
(Not including the Assist for Jairzinho vs Peru at 1970 World Cup which Opta have given)

Officially he has 48 Assists in 91 🇧🇷Games https://t.co/Jr4JMzqaKp

— All Things Brazil™ 🇧🇷 (@SelecaoTalk) October 13, 2020

 

Timely post,Tro,very timely i would say...
Correct me if im wrong is this figure inclusive of the Peru 70 assist or not...
If not then it should be 49 assists

 

Then its 8 goals and 6 assists for Pele in 59 Copa...
Looks like the greatest ever Copa performance

 

Yes i saw that later. The first guy (Wesley Iuri) who counted them didn't have all of the newspapers ,videos and sources. That's why he said Minimum. He also confirmed under the thread he didn't have them all.

I checked some of the footages of the games that the journalist Tomas Rosolino calculated from various years and it seems to match properly in those matches.



Btw here are the official assists every year :

Hey guys, let's go with the "official" numbers:

1957: 1 assist
1958: 2 assist
1959: 6 assist
1960: 4 assist
1961: -
1962: 8 assist
1963: 3 assist
1964: 3 assist
1965: 3 assist
1966: 3 assist
1967: -
1968: 2 assist
1969: 4 assist
1970: 8 assist

47 assistências.

— Tomás Rosolino (@TomasRosolino) October 11, 2020

 

He didn't the count the assist to the Jairzinho goal where Jairzinho made a run and then scored. Opta and other sources counts that as assist though.

And he didn't include penalties won it seems :

No!

— Tomás Rosolino (@TomasRosolino) October 13, 2020

 

He seems to have left out the 58 WC finals assist too did you notice...

 

Did pele touch the ball on that assist to Vava ?

 

Yeah, I think so, and also created the opening:
BRAZIL vs USSR- ROUND - WORLDCUP - 1958 - YouTube
But if deflections on passes would mean no assist, as I assume might generally be the case even if minor with no deviation of the ball really, then he wouldn't have an assist vs USSR in 1965 in the home game I guess (on goal shown from around 35 minutes on this video):
21.11.1965. BRAZIL-USSR Friendly Match - YouTube
For the away game I do think it is one assist on top of his two goals though.

 

Actually i know Pele assisted vs USSR in his first WC game. I was talking about the first goal of Brazil in 1958 final. The one Garrincha crossed and Vava and Pele was between the delivery.

 

Ah, ok, yeah it's difficult to be sure isn't it (Pele and the defender both stretch their leg towards the ball but it doesn't seem clear either got a touch I think before it gets to Vava, and I guess it makes most sense to just call it a Garrincha assist probably), but I'd tend to think not.