Germany vs Argentina - International Friendly

Discussion in 'Argentina: Selecciones Nacionales' started by jimmi_moh, Sep 3, 2014.

  1. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Barcelona, Inter Milan
    Argentina
    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Now Kun already scored for his club and country in the beginning of the season, I think its too fast to write him off from the NT since he suffered so many injuries last season and even got injured again in the middle of the WC. I'd blame this one on Sabella, replacing Lavezzi in favor of unfit player.

    It has to be said, we also relied on Romero heavily in first half with his 1v1 saves. We got caught too easily with Germany's throughball and long ball. This could be fatal in next year tournament against the likes of Brazil, Chile and Colombia at knockout stage. You cant expect Romero to keep doing that and then blame him when he fails.
     
  2. johnbarley2

    johnbarley2 Member+

    Jan 19, 2013
    #77 johnbarley2, Sep 3, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
    Yes, nobody is doubting Aguero's quality but he was unfit, poor in all matches he played with. Even after the first couple matches several of us were screaming for Lavezzi to start. He gave the team more balance. This was proven eventually and then in the end we went back to what didn't work because Sabella tried to win it there rather than risk going to penalties against Germany. As a result we lost balance and the match.

    But overall Sabella did great. I'd say his weakness was giving too much time to unfit big names: Gago and Aguero.

    Our defense against counterattacks has never looked so good as it did with Sabella. For years under Basile, Biesla, Pekerman, Maradona, Batista that was our worst problem. I'm afraid we are regressing.

    Anyway, I never trusted the "fantastic 4" and the vast of our qualifying matches were won without all 4 of them starting. Lavezzi was a good player although not top tier and he's probably fading. I'm hoping we can see an emergence of Lamela which will give us a lot more balance. He gives us betters spacing, adds a lot more defensively than Higuain and Aguero (especially since he can play wide and occupy fullbacks), has a better long range shot, and is a good header of the ball. All of those qualities will help us when playing against closed defenses (e.g. Iran, Switzerland).

    Also hoping Icardi gives Higuain some competition. Haven't seen him much but seems Icardi is cold-blooded whereas Higuain is not in big matches. How is Icardi in the air? Is he more physical than Higuain?

    Iturbe as a right-footed spark off the bench is also intriguing. We have Messi, Di Maria, Lamela all as top left-footed dribblers.
     
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  3. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Aguero should not start, he always looks world class in friendlies and then drops in performance at tournaments. How about a 4-2-3-1 with Lavezzi on the right, Lamela in the middle, DiMaria on the left, and Messi up front. Pastore, Alvarez, Zarate, Higuain, Aguero and Tevez can compete for the offensive substitute roles, add the young crop of Gaitan, Salvio, Icardi, Botta, Ocampo and Iturbe and that's some incredible depth for the next four years in attack.

    Also, the team needs to play as a unit and stop playing for Messi, today DiMaria was given the ball and gave an incredible performance. Messi should still start but as a role player, the team plays much better this way.

    Brazil won that match with far more ease than Germany won against us, I can only imagine DiMaria could have made Argentina World Champions.
     
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  4. SupaMario

    SupaMario Member+

    Aug 31, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CA Tigre
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Oh, you have no idea how cold blooded he is.:D
     
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  5. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Our defense look vulnerable, a lot of it had to do with the midfielders failing in their cover, but it should definitely improve with Garay and Fazio starting, then we can have DeMichelis, Otamendi, Fernandez and Coloccini as quality subs, I hope Martino plays a couple of the promising youngsters too, especially Musacchio, Lisandro Lopez and Fontanini. Where we lack depth is out wide with our fullbacks, Zabaleta and Rojo are great but there are not many options besides them, hopefully Ansaldi continues to play well at Atletico, he can play equally as right or left back, Orban at Valencia, Peruzzi improves his form, and Sanchez Mino establishes himself in Serie A. Vangioni from River Plate looks good too, but not too many standouts besides them for fullbacks.
     
  6. SupaMario

    SupaMario Member+

    Aug 31, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CA Tigre
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    If you are building for the future, eliminate Tevez and Lavezzi. Tevez will be 34, and Lavezzi 33 when 2018 rolls around. Maybe for the CA, but that's it. Qualifiers, forget about it.

    Plus, Gaitan isn't exactly a young corp either. Who knows who emerges in the next few years.
     
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  7. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yeah, that's true. Here's hoping Lavezzi in particular ages well, he has the crazy edge to make a difference on the wing against a tough opponent.
     
  8. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Barcelona, Inter Milan
    Argentina
    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    CA 2015 should be filled with many players that we're going to use in qualifier and next WC. I'm really glad it didnt take long for Lamela to get his first goal for the NT. I believe he had an assist when we beat Italy sometime ago.

    Tevez and Lavezzi are things of the past. Tevez already played in 5 major tournaments and his contribution for NT has been terrible in both friendlies and major tournament, 1 goal + 2 reds in qualifier while Kun still scored 4 goals despite limited playing time. When he missed his penalty that cost us the CA 2011 quarterfinal, that should nails it to the coffin. Kun scored 3 goals at group stage which took the team to quarterfinal and Tevez replaced him only to cost us in the shootout.

    Iturbe and Icardi has yet to start for the NT, so we cannot and should not judge them yet.
     
  9. johnbarley2

    johnbarley2 Member+

    Jan 19, 2013
    Garay is certainly our best defender and he would have helped a bit but he' s not better than Demichelis at playing the ball out of the back. Fazio is a great option but he's not going to displace Garay as left CB especially in South America when we don't need as heavy aerial defense and he has little experience as right CB as far as I know. I think our CB pair is still Federico-Garay.

    I don't see any personnel change that will allow us to play out of the back while not given up slews of chances. During the first half alone, Germany had at least 6 chances form simple mistakes by players such as Romero, Micho, Biglia, Mascherano. I honestly don't trust any our back 4, DM's (not even Banega), or GK with these tactics.
     
  10. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Barcelona, Inter Milan
    Argentina
    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Its only Tata first game in charge, not exactly a bad one from the final result. Sabella's defence started shaky in qualifier, even during WC group stage but gradually becoming better and peaked during WC knockout stage which proof to be crucial.

    Lets not forget, this is World champion playing at their home ground so you can have the best defence and they probably still going to find way to create chances.
     
  11. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I believe Garay can play right centerback, didn't he do this in Beijing 08 when paired with Fazio on defense? By the way, the gold winning defense back then was Romero, Zabaleta, Garay, Fazio and Monzon - only Monzon did not pan out as senior NT talent.

    Not sure Fernandez is seen as starting material anymore after his disappointing performance at the WC, but he is good to have as reserve for his experience and excellent aerial game.

    Our center mids lately have not had that great touch on the ball, like Lucho Gonzalez used to have, and it makes us prone to counterattacks after errors in passing/linking up play. I think Enzo Perez should be played as #8 alongside Mascherano or Biglia, but also Martino needs to bring in some fresh names, maybe Kranevitter, Romero and Canteros can help.

    I wouldn't yet say Lavezzi is a thing of the past, some players age very well (such as Zanetti or Riquelme), and I hope that's the case for Lavezzi - at the very least he adds depth to our attacking options.
     
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  12. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Barcelona, Inter Milan
    Argentina
    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    He's not really needed anymore especially with Lamela proof that can play in both left and right position behind the striker. We didnt even have Messi in this game.

    One thing for sure, he never have that goalscoring touch with him in NT just like Palacio. The reason why he looked good in WC was because the other frontlines Higuain, Aguero and Palacio were all poor. But If Lamela keep getting better from now on and Tata decided to fields another upcoming talents soon, its hard to see Pocho to be included on this team for next few years. He did his part to help us to the final and I'm gratefull enough with that.
     
  13. johnbarley2

    johnbarley2 Member+

    Jan 19, 2013
    He has time but it's folly to radically alter our tactics after our best qualifying campaign and WC finals. Would we even consider it had we won the World Cup? Barring a narrow Messi missed shot, a Di Maria injury, and fitness problems, we would have won it.

    Will watch the match in Hong Kong. Hopefully make it to Chile.
     
  14. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    If Lamela and DiMaria keep playing like this, Messi won't be needed either :thumbsup:

    Argentina reached the final but never played the type of beautiful football expected - it's not good to completely alter the team but some changes are needed. I am thankful to Sabella for building a team that knew how to compete in tournaments (Estudiantes coaches are great at this), but frankly I was hoping for a change in playing style. Martino, while a good defensive coach, likes to play possession football with the right players available.
     
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  15. johnbarley2

    johnbarley2 Member+

    Jan 19, 2013
    Agree with this. Very doubtful that Lavezzi who is kind of a wild person and relies on pace is going to age like Zanetti and Riquelme. He was important for us in the WC 2014 but all good things come to an end.
     
  16. johnbarley2

    johnbarley2 Member+

    Jan 19, 2013
    I can understand this. Just hoped Sabella's system would remain in intact for one more tournament.

    I think it's a travesty that we revamp the team after each WC and consider CA as a starting point for the next one. The coach has valuable experience from the WC that he can take to the CA which is only a year later. All he has to do is make a couple adjustments. OTOH, the CA takes place so far ahead of the WC that the experience is of little use by that time - players form and fitness has completely changed. We do not have enough time between the WC and the CA to develop a new system. I think it's one of the main reasons for our CA failures.
     
  17. jimmi_moh

    jimmi_moh Member+

    Mar 30, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Tata played high line defense , and given DMs to more attacking options which is exactly opposite to sabellas theory. But in another words we are creating more open space for our opponents.

    I know it is just his first match and am sure he can correct gaps in defense or use the similiar philosophy of sabela.

    Friendly or not victory against germans are always sweet.
     
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  18. johnbarley2

    johnbarley2 Member+

    Jan 19, 2013
    Well, both are in the EPL now so there will be a direct comparison.

    EPL seems to be the most interesting league this year for our players: Zab, Micho, Aguero, Rojo, Di Maria, Fernandez, Fazio, Lamela. That could be more than half of our starting players.
     
  19. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Barcelona, Inter Milan
    Argentina
    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Our latest 3 matches has been against Holland, Germany and Germany. We didnt have Angelito in WC semifinal and final while some of key players had fitness issue. So you look at what Holland and Germany capable against team like Spain, Chile, Portugal and Brazil, and to think we did well against them with the absent of Di Maria, if there's a time to win silverware, that would be the 2015 tournament.

    Being a World cup finalist and beating Germany at their home proof we're certainly one of two best team in the world right now.
     
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  20. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yeah, plus Romero may be headed to a big team over there and Ricardo Alvarez who's at Fulham.
     
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  21. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Barcelona, Inter Milan
    Argentina
    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Did anyone notice that Germany's crowd applauded Di Maria when he was subbed?
     
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  22. johnbarley2

    johnbarley2 Member+

    Jan 19, 2013
    Yes, without a doubt we will have to make massive changes in midfield the way Martino wants to to play.
    Just looked it up. Alvarez transferred to Sunderland. Didn't even know as I haven't been reading the news at all since the WC. Then we got Yacob at West Bromwich.
     
  23. johnbarley2

    johnbarley2 Member+

    Jan 19, 2013
    Applauded and thanked their lucky stars he was injured for the final.
     
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  24. jimmi_moh

    jimmi_moh Member+

    Mar 30, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    One more point here is , we were too much reliant on messi in last few years , most of the matches we played with him all other players were too focused on "how to get the ball to messi" .

    i am just recapping few matches that we played with out messi such as one against italy, another against uruguay, and one against bosnina ,and this one . our players looks very much composed and add more flair in the passing.

    please dont take it as ant messi post , it was because our strategy was too much reliant on messi.
    i want the similar composure that showed in today's match with messi too. tata has to get rid of over reliant on messi.
     
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  25. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Barcelona, Inter Milan
    Argentina
    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I already mentioned that but even though Messi will surely starts all the time in major tournament, we must not build the team on one player because that player can have a bad game or can be tired/unfit. That will cost us the game.

    If Tata could find the way to play Messi as CF with Di Maria and Lamela behind him, it could be devastating. Its better than having Messi in midfield pulling the strings for the 2 forwards in front of him.
     

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