No Its a simple answer but i wil explain. I have much respect for Müller. Probably the most Natioral goalscorer of all time. Only reason why he isn’t top 20 is because there are better players to be ranked above him. In random order : Cruyff, Pelé, Maradona, Platini, di Stefano, best, puskas, eusebio, Zidane, Charlton, Messi, Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, van basten, Zico, garincha, Gullit, Rivera, Beckenbauer, José leandro Andrade. Those i defintely rank above Müller. Müller is somewhere between 20 and 40 and a case can be Made for 21 but also for ranking him 39.
I'm not sure whether it matches what Lessthanjake was using without going back to see, or whether Trachta has different sources for his thread or not, but I think Transfermarkt is a German site isn't it, and it does have assist data for Muller's years (I believe it's alleged it's a bit generous on there compared to eg OPTA, for recent players at least, but I guess they apply the same concepts to old Bundesliga stats to the extent they'd have the info or have seen the footage). Gerd Müller - Detailed stats | Transfermarkt Kicker doesn't seem to have assist data going back beyond 1989/90 on it's website though (it's useful from that year onwards). Anyway, Transfermarkt does have him top for Bundesliga assists in 71/72 with 17 assists (indicated by the football icon with the green dots on it): Bundesliga - List of goalscorers 71/72 (Detailed view) | Transfermarkt Also for 74/75 with 13 assists: Bundesliga - List of goalscorers 74/75 (Detailed view) | Transfermarkt And also going back to 70/71 with 13 assists too: Bundesliga - List of goalscorers 70/71 (Detailed view) | Transfermarkt He's not in double figures for assists according to the site in other seasons, and in 69/70 (where he's closest to it with 9 assists) Netzer is the top assister. So yeah, I'm not sure how reliable (in terms of data for all players from every club) or how wide the criteria, but that's the raw numbers from Transfermarkt suggesting him as top Bundesliga assister in those seasons. Maybe Lessthanjake's work on this thread will tie in with the stats nicely enough, and maybe @Gregoriak has some further idea or input about the topic.
Maybe this is exactly what Matthew says it is, but just as a note for everyone I clicked a randomly posted link on here years ago and ended up with a virus. Maybe @comme or another mod can investigate but I'd suggest caution to be on the safe side.
Does anyone have the match reports of Gerd Muller in 1980 (league)? He scored 14 goals in 29 matches, but I need them by details (each game).
Maybe this is of help (a PDF I uploaded to my website) https://www.historical-lineups.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/1980.pdf
I just learned about Gerd Müller's death.To be honest I was wondering how long he would continue with being firmly in the grip of Alzheimer for 5 or 6 years now. He was living in a special care home since 2015. In that regard, it must have been a relief that it's over now for his family and also Gerd (who apparently had no idea anymore who he was and what was going on around him).
In Germany the tributes and recognition willl be enormous. Gerd Müller was the antithesis of the selfish money- and fame driven modern footballer. Humble and down to earth, people always loved/liked him even those that hate his club Bayern.
There is already this nice tribute video I see - not too extensive but with a good mix of goals rather than just being from the World Cup for example (the music might be a bit monotonous for some people's taste but I guess the uploader was going for poignant rather than inspiring): Gerd Muller - Tribute Video - YouTube I see now that Bobby Charlton is suffering from dementia too, and that this article discusses these problems occuring in football players such as the likes of him and Muller and the suggested links to the game (me and @PuckVanHeel were discussing Rob Rensenbrink's illness and death too recently): Dementia: The disease soccer won′t talk about | Sports | German football and major international sports news | DW | 13.11.2020
Why do lot of old footballers seem to suffer from dementia? Has it got to do with heading the ball back then with nature of the football?
It seems to be the case yes. This was Puck's reply about Rensenbrink This page includes heading the football repetitively under 'traumatic brain injury' (at least for retired players with the heavy wet balls, but there is talk in the present tense still of kids not heading balls in practice, and of limiting heading in training for professional players): About Dementia — The Jeff Astle Foundation
5 consecutive season peak Gerd muller Bundesliga 1969/70 to 1973/74 1969/70 12 match winning goals 21 club wins 1970/71 8 match winning goals 19 club wins 1971/72 9 match winning goals 24 club wins 1972/73 12 match winning goals 25 club wins 1973/74 5 match winning goals 20 club wins Bayern Munich won 109 matches out of a possible 170 league fixtures during the aforementioned period Gerd muller scored 46 match winning goals He had a direct share in 42% of his teams victories https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bundesliga/gamewinners/wettbewerb/L1/plus/1?saison_id=ges Cristiano Ronaldo La liga 2010/11 to 2014/15 2010/11 12 match winning goals 29 club wins 2011/12 17 match winning goals 32 club wins 2012/13 7 match winning goals 26 club wins 2013/14 12 match winning goals 27 club wins 2014/15 11 match winning goals 30 club wins Real Madrid won 144 league matches out of a possible 190 league fixtures between 2010/11 and 2014/15 Cristiano Ronaldo scored 59 match winning goals during the aforementioned period He had a direct share in 40% of his teams victories https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/laliga/gamewinners/wettbewerb/ES1/plus/1?saison_id=ges Lionel Messi La liga 2010/11 to 2014/15 2010/11 12 match winning goals 29 club wins 2011/12 13 match winning goals 28 club wins 2012/13 14 match winning goals 32 club wins 2013/14 10 match winning goals 27 club wins 2014/15 9 match winning goals 30 club wins FC Barcelona won 146 matches out of a possible 190 league fixtures during the aforementioned period Lionel messi scored 58 match winning goals He had a direct share in 40% of his clubs victories https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/laliga/gamewinners/wettbewerb/ES1/plus/1?saison_id=ges Ferenc puskas La liga 1959/60 to 1963/64 1959/60 9 match winning goals 21 club wins 1960/61 4 match winning goals 24 club wins 1961/62 8 match winning goals 19 club wins 1962/63 7 match winning goals 23 club wins 1963/64 10 match winning goals 22 club wins Real Madrid won 109 matches out of a possible 150 league fixtures during the aforementioned period Ferenc puskas scored 38 match winning goals He had a direct share in 35% of his clubs victories https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/laliga/gamewinners/wettbewerb/ES1/plus/1?saison_id=ges Marco van basten Serie A 1988/89 to 1992/93 1988/89 8 match winning goals 16 club wins 1989/90 10 match winning goals 22 club wins 1990/91 5 match winning goals 18 club wins 1991/92 7 match winning goals 22 club wins 1992/93 4 match winning goals 18 club wins Ac Milan won 96 matches out of a possible 170 league fixtures during the aforementioned period Marco van basten scored 34 match winning goals He had a direct share in 35% of his teams victories If we discount his injury ridden 1992/93 campaign that number climbs to an incredible 38% Thierry Henry Premier league 2001/02 to 2005/06 2001/02 7 match winning goals 26 club wins 2002/03 10 match winning goals 23 club wins 2003/04 10 match winning goals 26 club wins 2004/05 7 match winning goals 25 club wins 2005/06 8 match winning goals 20 club wins Arsenal FC won 126 matches out of a possible 190 league fixtures during the aforementioned period Thierry Henry scored 42 match winning goals He had a direct share in 32% of his clubs victories https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/gamewinners/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/1?saison_id=ges Robert lewandowski Bundesliga 2016/17 to 2020/21 2016/17 5 match winning goals 25 club wins 2017/18 8 match winning goals 27 club wins 2018/19 5 match winning goals 24 club wins 2019/20 12 match winning goals 26 club wins 2020/21 10 match winning goals 24 club wins Bayern Munich won 126 matches out of a possible 170 league fixtures during the aforementioned period Robert lewandowski scored 40 match winning goals He had a direct share in 32% of his teams victories https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bundesliga/gamewinners/wettbewerb/L1/plus/1?saison_id=ges Michel platini Serie A 1982/83 to 1986/87 1982/83 5 match winning goals 15 club wins 1983/84 6 match winning goals 17 club wins 1984/85 4 match winning goals 11 club wins 1985/86 6 match winning goals 18 club wins 1986/87 0 match winning goals 14 club wins Juventus won 75 matches out of a possible 150 league fixtures during the aforementioned period Michel platini scored 21 match winning goals He had a direct share in 28% of his clubs victories If we discount his injury ridden 1986/87 campaign this number goes up to 34% which is frankly superb His goals were arguably worth as much as the prime versions of Robert lewandowski and Thierry Henry Diego Maradona Serie A 1984/85 to 1988/89 1984/85 2 match winning goals 10 club wins 1985/86 3 match winning goals 14 club wins 1986/87 5 match winning goals 15 club wins 1987/88 5 match winning goals 18 club wins 1988/89 4 match winning goals 18 club wins Napoli won 75 matches out of a possible 154 league fixtures during the aforementioned period Diego Maradona scored 19 match winning goals He had a direct share in 25% of his teams wins https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/serie-a/gamewinners/wettbewerb/IT1/plus/?saison_id=ges Neymar Jr La liga/ligue 1 2014/15 to 2018/19 2014/15 7 match winning goals 30 club wins 2015/16 5 match winning goals 29 club wins 2016/17 0 match winning goals 28 club wins 2017/18 0 match winning goals 29 club wins 2018/19 6 match winning goals 29 club wins Barcelona/PSG won 145 matches out of a possible 190 league fixtures during the aforementioned period Neymar jr scored 18 match winning goals He had a direct share in 12% of his teams victories
Gerd Muller was much more than a penalty box goal poacher I have viewed some compilations of him lately and he was a much more rounded player than portrayed. He frequently dropped deep to help his team win back the ball and instigate attacks with his link-up play. This compilation demonstrates his all-round contribution in addition to his extraordinary goalscoring ability with Muller dropping deep frequently to help out defensively and instigate attacks.
Yeah, Muller actually dropped deep a lot to help in midfield, and also to win the ball back. As far as I can tell, he was pretty mediocre in terms of actual midfield play, but was pretty good at winning the ball back. Even being mediocre in actual midfield play is helpful in advancing the ball though, because it is simply better/easier to have another player in midfield. Having your striker drop deep to help in midfield undeniably helps stabilize your midfield even if they’re not some midfield maestro because it adds an extra player to pass to and an extra player pressing the other team’s midfield. The cost of having a striker drop deep is that they’re less likely to be in a position to score. But, of course, Gerd Muller scored plenty anyways. So I think he needs to be seen as a player who was possibly the greatest goal scorer ever but ALSO contributed a good deal to the midfield build up by dropping deep, winning the ball back, etc., albeit not being some midfield maestro. I also note that it’s not surprising that Muller dropped deep to help stabilize the midfield, when we recognize that Bayern simply did not have a strong midfield for the vast majority of his time there. I’ve detailed that long ago on prior pages of this thread.
Hey everyone, first post. I spent quite some time researching Gerd Müller in recent years, so I always had an eye on contributing here. Cheers @lessthanjake for creating this thread, really glad something like this exists. Also greets to @Gregoriak, whose work here & elsewhere influenced my own research greatly, both on Müller and historical players in general. Definitely, same for me. Will try to convey some of the things I found out.
I want to dig deeper into this aspect, as it's a great way to bust the most persistent myths about Müller. By now, there are several all-touch compilations online showing him playing variations of this role: Müller in midfield I - vs Liverpool away (1971) This is a pure defensive midfielder performance by Müller, Bayern's ultra-defensive tactics owing to injury woes across the squad (including Müller). But while a makeshift solution, this setup became the blueprint for Bayern's approach to tough games in the mid-to-late 70s, and was instrumental in their European Cup wins. In fact, Udo Lattek used it right in the next Bundesliga game, Bayern nullifying Hamburger SV in the first half with their "Liverpool brick wall tactics" (kicker), then hammering them 4-1 in the second half. Müller scored three. The same happened to Liverpool, but over two legs: Having been held to a goalless draw at Anfield, they lost 3-1 to an attacking-minded Bayern side in Munich. Müller scored a brace, including this one: (Note the power on the header and the freak reaction time on the rebound). ------------------------------------------------ Müller in midfield II - vs Dynamo Dresden away (1973) Just finished & uploaded this one. This is pretty much an ideal representation of the "away game role" @Gregoriak has alluded to. I don't expect many people to actually watch a 15-minute compilation with plenty of off-the-ball movement, but those who do will get a good idea of Gerd Müller, the overall player. Fighting, defending, attacking, grabbing an assist and the decisive goal. Tactical analysis of the game here (in German): https://spielverlagerung.de/2016/12/24/hoeness-kontert-den-dresdner-kreisel/ ------------------------------------------------ Müller in midfield III - vs Real Madrid (home) 1976 This great performance has already been posted right at the start of this thread. More forward positioning compared to the ones posted before. As for the tap-in merchant cliché, see Müller's first goal: first time, left-footed (!), outside of the boot piledriver from 19-20 yards out. Or, for that matter, the way he grinds out & converts the second, right foot this time. ------------------------------------------------ All three matches show Müller playing deeper, but in each he's striking a different balance between defensive and offensive elements - testament to one of his key traits: the flexibility to adapt his own game to vastly different tactical situations.
I started viewing compilations of Muller a couple of years back and was stunned by his all-round ability. It is infuriating how he is pigeonholed as merely a penalty box goal poacher when he was such a complete player who would drop deep and help initiate attacking moves and defend deep into his own half at times. His all-round contribution combined with his incredible shooting ability to my mind makes him somewhat underrated despite his legendary status as his overall play is never referenced in discussions about him and he is portrayed as a goal-hanger/tap in merchant when in reality his finishing ability was perhaps the finest of any forward in the history of the game with a wide repertoire of goals from all kinds of angles and positions.
Fantastic post! FYI, I did watch the entire Dynamo Dresden video just now, and I thought it was very well done! This is what’s actually really curious about Gerd Muller. At a very basic level, his reputation in terms of the role he played just doesn’t really match up to reality. He has this reputation as a pure poacher, but when you watch his matches it’s almost always somewhere on the spectrum demonstrated by these various matches—which range from a forward that drops into midfield to engage in link-up play, all the way to a guy who plays as a defensive midfielder for large portions of the match. And I think this is really important to assessing him, because the poacher label is given to him to try to downplay his goalscoring. The idea is that he just sat on the shoulder of the last man and waited to have all the team’s chances funneled to him. And that’s just not at all the case. He not only provided plenty of value in different phases of play across the pitch, but also was often not the furthest player up the pitch, which means that he wasn’t at all just constantly in position to get all the team’s chances. To me, this makes his goalscoring all the more impressive. For him to score as much as he did while often dropping very deep indicates an extreme goalscoring prowess that wouldn’t quite be evident if you just assumed he was a pure poacher always sitting on the shoulder of the final defender. It takes freakishly clinical finishing and goalscoring instincts to score as much as Gerd Muller did while actually playing as varied a role across the pitch as Muller often did.
It's quite common for German players, especially from that generation – players like Schwarzenbeck, Netzer, Wimmer, Vogts have all suffered from similar stereotyping. Even Beckenbauer to a degree. Football culture seems very narrative-driven, so players and coaches will often be remembered along such lines, rather than on a more realistic idea of their traits and abilities. But it's also partly understandable, as before weekly global broadcasts and the internet, most people had to rely on reports, stories, and limited TV footage to form an image of a player. I guess Müller with his rather unusual profile was kind of destined for such misunderstandings.
Cheers, I knew some would True. To me, the important thing is to appreciate how vast his repertoire was, and how flexible he was in applying it. By now I've made out 4-5 distinct tactical roles he fulfilled to varying degrees during his career. Of course, he mostly played in some variation of striker role (and the poacher label isn't wrong in itself, just extremely reductive). The cool thing is how he could mix up all these different elements (often over the course of a single game), and his great tactical sense as for when & how to adjust his role according to the needs of the team.
Yes, the existing material suggests he wasn't a big volume shooter (relative to his goal record), but simply had a freakish conversion rate. Some years ago, I took notes from his available full games and a reasonable speculation is that he took +/- 4 shots a game, scoring about 25% of them (pens included). But I'd need to update this, as there are more games available by now, and there's 15-30 minutes missing in a few, so shots/90 would be better. I know from this thread that you love stats, so here's one - Müller's combined shot attempts from the final four games of Germany's EURO & WC wins (vs Belgium, USSR, Poland, Netherlands): 8 shots 8 on target 6 goals (75% conversion rate, 75% of Germany's team goals) In the WC final, he actually scored a clean 7th goal on the 9th attempt, but it was scrapped in a horrendous offside decision. (Although the linesman is partly excused by how incredibly quick Müller moved against the offside trap).