I suppose the absurd way this was handled is totally in line with so many other aspects of this WC. . . .
Since getting the opening match would presumably rule him out for the Final, is this a little bit surprising? Or are/were their other refs from non-qualified countries ahead of him for the Final (for example, Vincic)?
Elizondo and Pitana both did the opener and the final. So it doesn’t rule him out. I would say it makes it more challenging but given that it has been accomplished in half of the last four tournaments, maybe it doesn’t. That said, it wasn’t like he was a clear cut favorite for the final so to the extent it does hurt him, I don’t think it’s a surprise. For me the only surprising part is that other referees could be conflicted from the final (namely Tuprin and Mateu…Taylor/Oliver, too). So to the extent they know Orsato can work the latter stages while others might not, it’s a bit surprising they didn’t go with someone who might not get a chance later. That said, I feel like the Frappart factor drove everything to this conclusion.
So apparently there will be 10 officials per appointment--meaning 5 in the VAR booth. There is now an "SBVAR," which I guess is "stand-by VAR." Seems like an offside specialist. So an AR pair goes into the booth every time? There reaches a point where this is just silly, though I guess it is another avenue to making sure all personnel works a few matches. [#WorldCup2022]Catar vs EcuadorÁ: Daniele Orsato 🇮🇹A1: Ciro Carbone 🇮🇹A2: Alessandro Giallatini 🇮🇹4to: Istvan Kovacs 🇷🇴5to: Mihai Artene 🇷🇴VAR: Massimiliano Irrati 🇮🇹AVAR: Paolo Valeri 🇮🇹OVAR: Tomasz Listkiewicz 🇵🇱SVAR: Benoit Millot 🇫🇷SBAVAR: Pawel Sokolnicki 🇵🇱— ArbitroInternacional (@ArbitroInteBlog) November 18, 2022
In the podcast interview, Collina says that there will be 4 VARs working. So my presumption is that, like a reserve AR, this SBAVAR seems like they will just be doing nothing unless…. (???)something happens to one of the others? Upset tummy maybe? [emoji23] The acronym itself highlights how silly this is, the “stand by” to the “assistant” to the video “assistant” referee. Very far removed from any actual refereeing!
Also in Collina’s podcast, an answer that I found interesting with regards to the philosophical outlook we might see. He was asked about the possibility of a second yellow card being given for time wasting, and about the host’s feeling that a first yellow card for time wasting was a license to continue wasting time since no referee would send a player off for that. He said that he didn’t agree that it would give the players such a license, but he did say that he hoped it won’t happen because “it’s not that good if players are sent off,” but reiterated that “we need to protect the image of the game.” He then goes in to talk about how the referees must also protect players’ safety, they “cannot accept to have players injured because of brutal or very strong tackles permitted by an opponent.” To me, this reads as a base philosophy of “manage the technical, punish the physical.” (This is around the 52:00 mark if you want to listen yourself)
Yeah, Collina's confirmation that there would again be four officials in the booth is what took me back. This is a change from what he said somewhere between 24-48 hours ago. Like I said, I suspect it's a political move to ensure more individuals get on matches. You'll note, in this case, that neither Pole is there as a VMO--they are both ARs who can also act as Offside AVARs. So, for example, a role that Nesbitt and others who aren't clearly tied to an on-field trio could regularly play. But yeah, the fourth VAR (support VAR) is basically already a backup. I can't even begin to imagine what the stand-by offside AVAR will do, other than nothing.
To be fair, at a tournament like the World Cup, there are a lot more cameras to look at than on a regular league match. More pairs of eyes in the VOR to triage the camera angles and provide the best ones to the main VAR is probably an important task, especially for speeding up the process. If this was what the extra cooks in the kitchen were for, that would be one thing.
As people who work MLS would likely tell you, too many cooks is not a good thing. I mean, UCL works with a pair. I think three is overkill, but defensible. The division of labor with four is silly--the fourth "support" AVAR is essentially backup, one other individual to consult and, if/when necessary, helping to facilitate communication with other stakeholders. I truly can't begin to invent what a stand-by offside AVAR does. Once the pictures are isolated for the offside decision, the actual Offside AVAR is giving his/her opinion and consulting with the VAR to make the decision. There doesn't need to be a committee. If anything, I fear it slows things down unnecessarily.
To be fair the interview was recorded on Mon 7/Nov (ie. before the Frappart schenanigans kicked off), but still. Easy prediction already - Nesbitt will be reserve offside VAR for the final . EDIT - for me the most interesting thing from the whole podcast was stating that Luigi Agnolin used to nap before his games!
Senegal : Netherlands - SAMPAIO (BRA) I didn’t expect to be proven so right so quickly about Seneme’s influence. Both Brazilians on two of the first four matches. And on merit at least one of them doesn’t even deserve to be at the tournament. Astounding.
After all your years following and trying to predict referee assignments at various tournaments, I am genuinely surprised that you are still astounded by some of these outcomes. I imagine there will be many more "strange" ones to come, particularly at this event. (BTW, We need an imoji for the "French shrug.") PH
I’m sorry but you trot this out every time. Just because political influence CAN happen doesn’t mean it’s predictable every time. Getting two Brazilians to work at all would have been seen as Seneme’s influence. Getting them both to work MD1 would have been such influence. If you want to tell me I’m naive because I didn’t see both Brazilians working on day 2 of the tournament… whatever. Say what you want. But for anyone who has closely observed this stuff recently, it is shocking. Do you want to name the last time two referees from the same country had two of the first three matches? Because I think we’d be waiting quite some time. You cannot pretend that something unprecedented was predictable.
Both @Pierre Head and @MassachusettsRef are right. I'm absolutely stunned and extremely disappointed in these assignments. Incredible how the 'progress' of appointing x token women leads to deep, deep regression in the process (it is very toxic internally and weakens all the institutions) - I am really struggling to think of more depressingly brazen appointments regarding committee member influence (or rather - the huge influence of a small number of members) ever. The three powerful people are Collina (with two Italians in tow), Al-Raeesi and Seneme. The first two days will be exclusively refereed by their officials. It is depressing and staggering in equal measure...
Btw - FIFA had the good sense to realise this would happen in the past, when the refcom structures were weak, and mandated one official, one country so that eg. three Syrian referees wouldn't handle the first three games. Incredible in 2022 we return to such a depressing state of affairs...
Wait... I was not being critical. I agree with you, I know you are not naive, but it is predicable that all kinds of unexpected appointments occur quite frequently because of the nature of the system. It is not pure. I just thought that by now you would not have been shocked anymore by them. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. As you say, I have mentioned the situation previously, because it does happen in some way every time. In general terms it's not unusual anymore, although obviously the specifics change. PH
"FIFA and good sense" is on the list of oxymorons! This location of this tournament is the prime example, but there have been plenty of others. PH
Qatari referee who has been basically “raised” by FIFA since many years ago to prepare him, as the “heir apparent” host referee, for this tournament. He’s certainly been given plenty of international experience, and you might remember him from the Club World Cup Final in 2019. As we much criticize FIFA’s pushing of female referees, we should also criticize FIFA’s treatment of Al-Jassim, who received incredibly disproportionate opportunities due to his nationality. With that said, unlike Frappart, Mukansanga, and Yamashita, I do think Al-Jassim at least possesses a certain demonstrated minimum quality (in men’s international games) for World Cup games; he’s not at the tier of Faghani or Beath (or Shukralla [emoji174]) in AFC, but I reckon he’s around the same level as Mohamed (who I tend to rate higher than most others in this blog). I think he is a decent enough ref despite all it took to get him to that point; however, I am stunned by this appointment too: other than perhaps the USA-England match on MD2, I can’t imagine a group stage game with a more sensitive media environment towards, in particular, the Qatari referee than this one. The media on both sides of the pond is going to have an absolute field day with this one. Not that Al-Jassim isn’t capable of having an ok match, but just about any other appointment would have been a less pressurized debut game for him.
The rules are and have always been that the host nation has to have a referee at the tournament. South Africa, Korea, and USA in '94 are quintessential examples of host nation having a referee at the tournament who wouldn't come close to making if their country wasn't the host. Fact is South Africa and Korea haven't had a referee at the World Cup since. So Qatar having a referee at the World Cup isn't out of bounds and out of the norm.
It’s been the norm but this norm should still be criticized : ) Even in 2018, would Karasev have had any shot if he wasn’t Russian? I highly doubt it. Ironically, politics is a double-edged sword for him: politics giveth his 2018 World Cup spot, and politics taketh away his 2022 world spot that was actually earned, this time.