General Appointments Discussion

Discussion in 'Euro 2024 - Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, May 31, 2024.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This thread will be for announcements and general discussion of appointments. Main referees are below:

    Gil Manzano (ESP)
    Guida (ITA)
    Kovacs (ROU)
    Kruzliak (SVK)
    Letexier (FRA)
    Makkelie (NED)
    Marciniak (POL)
    Meler (TUR)
    Nyberg (SWE)
    Oliver (ENG)
    Orsato (ITA)
    Scharer (SUI)
    Siebert (GER)
    Soares Dias (POR)
    Taylor (ENG)
    Tello (ARG)
    Turpin (FRA)
    Vincic (SVN)
    Zwayer (GER)

    For those who generally don't peruse the referee forum, a thread on the 2023-2024 UEFA season that might have some relevant background and discussion is here: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/uefa-competitions-2023-2024-referee-discussions-rs.2126411/
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So in the interest of prompting some discussion ahead of time and driving traffic to the subforum...

    The question raised in the main forum around what Vincic might get post-UCL and whether he was in or not in the very elite (I don't think he is, for what it's worth) got me thinking generally. With the 24-team format and three teams going through in most groups AND some broad parity among European teams save for a few sides on either end of the spectrum... it dawns on me that there really are very few unquestionably marquee matchups in MD1 and MD2.

    Quite frankly, I think there are only three:

    Germany v Scotland, simply by virtue of being the opener
    Spain v Italy
    Netherlands v France

    You could probably then add Spain v Croatia and maybe Denmark v England in a second tier. An argument could be made for one or two others.

    Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of likely consequential matches in those matchdays. And/or matches that could be challenging by virtue of the teams (e.g., on paper Turkey v Georgia could be an elimination match right out of the gate). But insofar as "where do our top three elite referees go," I wonder if the answer is obvious...

    Turpin on the opener
    Marciniak on Spain v Italy
    Orsato on Netherlands v France

    Is it that easy?
     
  3. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Spain vs Italy feels like a classic Makkelie match if I’ve ever seen one. Personally I’d prefer to see Marciniak on some spicier matchup like that Turkey vs Georgia. Plus that would keep him more out-of-the-spotlight for bigger matches later, which, with the way his season ended, is probably a good thing. But I have no idea if UEFA will actually go that route.
     
  4. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's very likely a moot point since I think Turpin will get the opener, but for me Spain-Italy is a lot more of a classic Turpin match. Turpin really started his rocket boost when he was nailing Atletico Madrid Champions League games, so being in the middle of a Spain-Italy game seems like it would be something akin to an Athleti-Inter game with some of the, um, "gamesmanship".

    One of my favorite things to watch in refereeing now is when Turpin gives his "I am not impressed by your futile attempts to embellish" smirk to some poor soul who dares trying to buy a call from him. :D Example image below.
    [​IMG]

    On a side note from the previous UEFA forum, I know there was a post criticizing the new "old gold" Macron shirt. For me, I REALLY like it for two reasons. First, I actually like that color. It's a New Orleans Saints/Purdue Boilermarkers/Vanderbilt Commodores type of gold. Second, that kit allows referees to wear yellow/gold and still avoid the neon colors that keepers usually wear. If we had that color in the US instead of our USSF yellow and green, it would be worn a lot. I know that would take money out of the kit supplier's pockets, but if you had that color, pink, and black, I think you'd have 98-99% of color clashes avoided.
     
  5. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    #5 Orangebarista, Jun 7, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2024
    This is what I hope!

    Do we expect the Spain vs Italy referee to work his 1st game? Or is there a possibility that e.g. Turpin works the opener + Spain vs Italy? I think he would be a very safe choice after the opener went well. At EURO 2020, Makkelie had the opener and was assigned to an early MD2 game.

    I also remember that France vs Germany was officiated by Carlos DCG at EURO 2020. Sometimes, we see surprises in the early games. But for some reason, I think Spain vs Italy will be treated differently. Other names are Vincic and Kovacs there.

    Furthermore, I really hope to see Orsato in Netherlands vs France. Although he could get the same treatment as Kuipers and a bit more shielded, avoiding top teams etc. Netherlands vs France is also a very suitable game for an English official, I would say.

    Some other games that could be challenging for other reasons:
    -Hungary-Switzerland (MD1) seems already a very important one in battle for 2nd place as Germany is normally topping their group. Hungary and Switzerland are not the easiest teams to referee.
    -Turkey-Georgia is an early neighbor clash. And Turkey-Portugal will be a hot night in Dortmund; there live ~2,5 million Turkish in Germany, which could be a factor during the tournament.
    - Netherlands vs Austria (MD3) seems a direct clash for qualification on beforehand. Austria is in top form lately and can be a dark horse
    -And I probably forget a few more…
     
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  6. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    What are your predictions for the first games? UEFA tends to appoint a few big names in the early days, to have a smooth start and set the tone. And looking at the first games on paper, they have to apply this strategy again.

    Game 1: The opener has been widely discussed. Most of us expect Turpin there. Vincic could be the outsider. Another name that crossed my mind is Letexier if they opt to save Turpin for MD2+MD3 in a more difficult game. Normally, GER-SCO is not the most challenging game to officiate. But still, it’s the sonorous opener. Game 2: Hungary-Switzerland, I expect this to be a challenging one. And as 2nd game of the tournament, it must be a highly experienced referee right?

    Game 3-4: no messing around in Group of Death. I have a feeling that Kovács will make an early appearance this tournament: i) Rosetti knows he will strictly apply that dissent-YC policy, and ii) he played a marginal role at last WC and EURO. I think, Kovács is a sound name in Spain-Croatia or Italy-Albania; the latter not to be underestimated. Albania is one of the most passionated teams and every game is important for qualification. Can see a very experienced name there as well. Zwayer also an option in this group.

    Game 5: Poland vs. Netherlands. Well, my compatriots are a bit cocky and think this as an easy win. Honestly, I doubt it. It could be a very straightforward choice to appoint a German there, as Germany is basically sandwiched between Poland and NL. But the more I’m thinking of it, it is a nice and bit more ‘hidden’ start for e.g. Guida or Gil Manzano.

    Furthermore, I expect that Orsato will work MD2 + MD3, but not in a too risky context. I guess Makkelie will be used in Group A+B. And I’m hoping to see Marciniak in spicey Group F :)
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd suggest history tells us its folly to try to predict which MD3 games are going to matter in a 24-team tournament. For that to be a direct clash for qualification, both teams have to lose to France and both have to beat Poland AND 3 points has to be "not enough" to be a top four third-place team (the alternative is they both have to be on 1 or 0 point(s)--but I don't think that is what you were implying!).

    Which groups and matches will matter--both for qualification itself and then setting up potentially hot R16 games--is a total crapshoot.

    The most recent openers have been Makkelie, Kassai, and Velasco Carballo. Those are biggish names, but honestly they aren't big names in contemporary times. Makkelie getting the last opener actually does suggest Letexier for the opener isn't crazy (because he got it over Kuipers, so to speak). I stick with Turpin, but I think the idea that it will be a Frenchman makes sense.

    I think I'd go with Makkelie on Hungary-Switzerland.

    Does putting Kovacs in a group with Spain make sense after the Barcelona issues? I get the argument, but seems like it can easily be avoided.

    I'd put Taylor on Spain-Croatia and Soares Dias on Italy-Albania.

    Kovacs here?

    I mean, ultimately the truth is that UEFA has much more flexibility than FIFA does in these sort of assignments. So predicting them seems even harder (and FIFA events aren't easy!). There are so many different paths UEFA could pursue and the political conflicts and requirements are fewer. Other than the biggest names for the biggest matches, almost any referee should be able to handle any game (particularly with VAR) and the earlier matches tend to be easier anyway (as do all UEFA matches, on the whole). So maybe other than "yeah, Turpin makes a lot of sense on MD1 for XYZ," this is all barely above guesswork until we see the first set of assignments.
     
  8. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I guess announcement for opener will come out tomorrow?
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seems like it must be. There is no press conference like with the World Cup, right?
     
  10. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I don't think so. Other than maybe Euro 2004, I don't recall UEFA ever really treating the Opener of the Euros as that big of a game. It's important, but it's not on the pedestal as the World Cup Opener.
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah. Honestly, I created the other thread without remembering that Makkelie had the opener last time (and, consequently, would not have included him as an option... though maybe that's not a "rule" either).
     
  12. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it's fine to discuss it here.

    The article seems to be missing or glossing over something. If the goal is to have higher "ball-in-play" time (which, I think it is), then the idea that EURO 2020 (and the UCL) already has higher ball-in-play time seems like it's a really good justification for not using "different rules" (which really just comes down to a different method of accounting).

    WC added an average of four minutes of stoppage to get three more minutes of play... okay, not bad. But if EURO is only 17 seconds behind the World Cup and almost 5 minutes(!) behind in stoppage time... seems like a justifiable case of "if it aint broke, don't fix it" from Rosetti and company.

    Now, if everyone set a target of 60 minutes ball-in-play, it might be a different story. But the fact that 11+ minutes of stoppage time still didn't get FIFA to that often alluded to goal speaks volumes. Adding time only can get you so far. Disciplining timewasting is what's going to get you those final couple of minutes.
     
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  14. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  15. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    #15 Orangebarista, Jun 13, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2024
    Hungary - Switzerland: Vinčić
    Spain - Croatia: Oliver
    Italy - Albania: Zwayer

    Straightforward appointments in my opinion.

    Vinčić, as usual, appointed to a game that can be challenging on the pitch, but a bit more ‘hidden’ as the match is played 13:00/14:00 and none of the top country is involved. He was used in a similar way in the Champions League.
    Oliver in a game between top sides that likely will be football focused. A typical Oliver-game.
    Zwayer’s game, actually I think this can be a tough one. Albania is a very passionated team, had a good qualification round.

    What stands out is that, so far, all appointed referees work with a 4O from the same country: Turpin/Letexier, Vinčić/Obrenović, Oliver/Taylor, Zwayer/Siebert. This can ensure a smooth start of the tournament.

    Predictions for Sunday:
    - A full Italian crew. In either POL-NED or SRB-ENG. My guess is, Guida will be in the middle with Orsato as 4O. I expect the latter to work in MD2 and MD3, like Kuipers in 2021.
    - Gil Manzano in a Sunday game?

    The odds for Marciniak in Group F are rising as well. :)

    It also will be interesting to see if the Referee Committee will stick to this strategy. In other words, will we see Turpin as 4O to Letexier as well? In that case, there should be enough ‘rest days’ in between. I hope to see a French crew in ESP-ITA.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I almost said this instead of Taylor but I can never quite figure out where Oliver stands within UEFA and I thought the suggesetion would look silly. Taylor's first appointment will now be interesting to watch.
     
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  17. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    #17 Orangebarista, Jun 13, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2024
    The status of Oliver is okay-ish, I would say. He is trusted with big games, but mostly in earlier stages. And Rosetti still tends to keep him away from Italian teams (and even the Italian NT) after the famous Juventus game. I also have the impression that Oliver is always blocked by the presence of Anthony Taylor and of course, English club teams everywhere. As soon as Taylor retires, Oliver can be a candidate for all UEFA finals.

    Both work with the same VAR (Atwell) and can be a support official to each other. VARs generally don’t work two days in a row as main VAR. There could/should be time for an evaluation or otherwise rest days in between. I think, Taylor is a sound name in Group F as well (Türkiye-Georgia or Portugal-Czechia). Impossible see Taylor with Italy :) Another option would be Austria-France.

    Turpin and Letexier also work with the same VAR (Brisard). So, I wonder where we can expect Letexier.

    Spain-Italy is a MD2 top game. The more I’m thinking of it, there are not too many options there. As you mentioned, Kovács indeed might be difficult as Spain has many Barcelona players in the squad. That’s avoidable. I think it could be an early 2nd appearance by Turpin or Vincic. I would love to see Letexier, but would they dare it at his first EURO? Other names are Marciniak and Makkelie. But that’s it. I noticed that two Dutch VARs are in the VAR booth on Saturday, which indicates that Makkelie has to wait a bit longer for his first match. If he’s appointed to Spain-Italy, I guess it would be his reward for a decent season, in which he deserved at least a SF UCL or final.
    But at the same time, it’s also safe to opt for Turpin or Vincic there, if their 1st game goes well.
     
  18. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    The Polish VARs also work on Saturday.
    Marciniak either in Group F (next Tuesday) or an early MD2 appearance in Group B? :)
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting anecdote:


    CONMEBOL tried to send Sampaio to Germany. Rosetti insisted on Tello. Have never heard of a confederation caring that much over who the guest referee is, but also never really thought about the machinations of the appointment either.
     
  20. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    If I remember correctly, Sampaio and Tello have both attended the UEFA winter course.

    Two things that come to mind:
    - Why would CONMEBOL insist on sending Sampaio instead of having him at Copa América? Meanwhile UEFA sends category 1 referees to Copa
    - Secondly, if Rosetti cared so much about having Tello and is so positive about him, in what UEFA games can we expect him? Similar management as Rapallini at EURO 2020, or…
     
  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not sure I understand what is being asked. Sampaio and Tello are comparable, at least in the eyes of FIFA and insofar as their status goes within South America. If they had pushed Tello, the exact same question could be asked. The fact is that CONMEBOL sends a top official to EURO for this exchange. Maybe its UEFA that insist on it. Or maybe there's a recognition that if they don't send a top referee, they are only getting one lower-level match. Or maybe it's an understanding that a strong performance at EURO from one of their guys greatly helps with potential World Cup appointments. Whatever it is, it's not odd that CONMEBOL would be pushing one of its top guys. What's interesting is that they were pushing one over the other and UEFA had a distinctly different opinion of what it wanted. Thinking back to WC22 where Sampaio got England-France... it's all quite interesting. I have never rated Sampaio but he was serviceable in Qatar. I wonder if Rosetti just saw through his performances at that tournament.

    As for the second point, it's just a reality. EURO is massively important for European referees. Other than the World Cup, it is it and a huge stage. Top European referees strive to get there. A top tier UEFA guy doesn't want to get sent here to do Bolivia-Panama or whatever. It's a step down. Copa is different. Yes, it's a continental tournament, but it's among teams that regularly face off in WCQ and also there are only a few top clashes (which Brazilian and Argentinian referees are often excluded from for obvious reasons). Getting to go to Europe represents a step up. Going the other way is a step down from the alternative. So sending a referee who doesn't fit into the EURO puzzle on merit or politics makes sense.
     
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  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Poland : Netherlands - SOARES DIAS (POR)
    Slovenia : Denmark - SCHARER (SUI)
    Serbia : England - ORSTO (ITA)

    As I've said, predicting these is close to total guesswork because anyone could fit anywhere save for a very few matches. Orsato here is maybe somewhat suprising, but with the potential for crowd issues and all that, it's also a match where he can slide in as a safe pair of hands and gives him exposure to England early. I can see the argument for it (while I could also see the argument against it!).

    Scharer is definitely a case of a "lower-tier" referee needing to land somewhere. And I say that while also believing he's very good and has a bright future. Any of these games could determine 2 v 3 or even critical 3 v 4, so it's not a bad appointment.

    Soares Dias there looks comensurate with his reputation, too.

    Nothing really shocking, unless you had Orsato penciled in for Netherlands v France, like I suggested. That's June 21st, so still possible. But Orsato with his age and injuries will surely be managed delicately, one would think. Unless the idea is to just run him into the ground in his last event!
     
  23. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    #23 Orangebarista, Jun 14, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2024
    Yes, it’s good appointment for Schärer. He is a very good referee and was unlucky with injuries. If he wasn’t injured, I think he would have had a UEFA final under his belt. The appointments of Slovenia NT also can be interesting, given the nationality of the president :)

    Not sure I expected Orsato in Serbia-England in a prime time game (21:00 CET), I think I expected him a bit more hidden, like Vincic, however an early appearance does make sense given Orsato’s age/fitness issues. Now they can spread his appointments as much as possible, with enough time to recover. And the appointment itself is not too risky either. Normally, England should win this with ease, and if they don’t, there is no man overboard and still enough chances to qualify. In general, the referees in a MD3 will be the most exposed ones imo. Especially in case of mistakes and/or controversial KMI’s.

    At the same time, the fact that Marciniak, Makkelie, Taylor etc. are still waiting for a first appearance already indicates to me that they will used in MD3 games, after a late MD1/MD2 appearance.
     
  24. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    Guida is not a 4O to Orsato, so I think we can expect him on Monday or Tuesday.
    My prediction is, Belgium vs Slovakia or Romania vs Ukraine.

    On another note, there are 36 games in groupstage and 19 CR’s. I guess it means that one CR won’t be appointed at all, or two CR’s are just appointed 1x in groupstage.
     
  25. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Exactly. The Euro Final is arguably the third biggest international match you can referee besides the World Cup and CL Final.

    I can't rattle off the location, teams, year and referee of the last two Copa America finals without looking it up, but I can rattle off all of that for every Euro Final until 1996.

    2020: Italy vs. England, London, Kuipers
    2016: Portugal vs. France, Paris, Clattenburg
    2012: Spain vs. Italy, Kiev, Proenca
    2008: Spain vs. Germany, Vienna, Rosetti
    2004: Portugal vs. Greece, Lisbon, Merk
    2000: France vs. Italy, Rotterdam, Frisk

    There is a proper cycle and qualification system to the Euros for the teams and referees as well. It also happens every four years where the Copa seems to happen every year or every other year. I can't tell you off the top of my head as to when the next Copa America is going to be without looking jt up. Is it in 2025? 2027? 2028?

    And I can't tell exactly when the last too were without looking it up. 2021 and 2019 or 2018?

    We all know the next Euros are gonna be in 2028.

    The previous ones were 2020 (2021), 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, 2000, 1996, 1992, etc. Set your watch to it. Short of another World War or another global pandemic we know the next one will be in 2028.

    The Euros just feel like a proper tournament that the whole pays attention to. Basically, a World Cup lite.

    There is also no consistency to the tournament. Some times it's 12 teams in South America. Some times it's 16 in North America.

    Couple of other factors why it matters alot to the referees.

    There is no guarantee that you're gonna go if you're the number one referee from a biggish country in Europe. You have to earn your spot through performance.

    It was definitely the case when it was a 16 team tournament. Now, not as much as likes of Spain, Italy, England, Germany will always have a referee.

    But still you have to earn your spot to an extent. The appointments aren't as politically driven as in the Copa.

    No matter how bad some of the best referees in South America are certain countries will always have representation and that referee will do a knockout game. Unless that referee is just hilariously incompetent. Argentine, Brazilian, and Uruguayan referees will each do a knockout match. Book it.

    If Turpin has another shaky game after today, he's not guaranteed to get a KO match.

    Remember the 2016 Copa America Final in New York? Heber Lopes? He had no business being at the tournament much less officiating the Final. It was a completely political and "gold watch" type of assignment.

    You won't get that at the Euros.

    There were Euros where there was no French whistle or Dutch whistle, or Portuguese whistles. There were Euros where an English referee didn't get a knockout match.
     
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