I think Best basically played in 4 man forward lines too - with Kidd and Law for example as the central forwards and Best and another winger wide. It was still maybe more of a 4-2-4 than 4-4-2 and was an attacking formation with Bobby Charlton as attacking midfielder. Sometimes Best did play as an inside forward (probably more like a SS than AM) but mostly as a winger. Agree about your Garrincha observations in '62 though - he did enjoy the freedom though it seems like he was used to mostly playing on the right side before that and was seen as an outright winger and an expert at that job. He did well in '58 as a pure winger of course. The highlights of his I've seen from Club level show a few goals where he comes into the inside right channel and scores. On another point I think Best had the talent to do similar things that Garrincha did in '62 - the England team Garrincha played against would be 'typical' sort of opposition for Best at Club level I suppose for example and he did great more than once vs European top sides in particular Benfica.
It has a big Britush readership of course, but just to note that Best came 8th in the World Soccer poll while Garrincha was 20th. Pele was first. No surprise that the British poll favours Best and the Brazilian ranking favours Garrincha though: http://www.englandfootballonline.com/teamhons/honswldsocplyrscent.html
I saw a Pele interview in ESPN Classic (only seen his and Cantona's so far so I guess there are others): He mentioned the injury he took into the '58 World Cup too.
[The other role that Best played quite a bit in the mid- and later '60s w/United was essentially that right-sided "all-action" midfielder in United's version of a 4-3-3 formation. Clive Bond mentioned it in that FA News article that I've posted a link to before and can do again if needed...]
If you'd like to link it here Roy it'd be very interesting to read. It'd also be interesting if you just wanted to post the team in the 4-3-3 with Best in that role using the ----'s to show your line-up (eg for the England '66 Final team see below - I think you'd tried in a thread to post using spaces and it messed up which is what I did once too!): ------------------------Banks---------------------- Cohen------J.Charlton------Moore---------Wilson ------------------------Stiles---------------------------- ----------Ball------------------------------Peters-------- -----------------------B.Charlton----------------------- ----------------Hurst------------Hunt--------------------- Feel free to adjust or correct my observations about Man Utd too - I think I'm right that they at least quite often used a kind of 4-2-4 though from what I've seen, although perhaps it was a 4-3-3 more often than I realised. I know Crerard and Stiles both played in the same team but in this game Best and Law both played as inside forwards (the formation diagram isn't accurate cos they were still using the Pyramid formation captions as you've mentioned) for example: EDIT - Law, not Kidd in the number 10 shirt - I corrected it when I noticed the blonde hair! Probably Law played more like a 'striker' than Best but most of the action is Tottenham goals!
[United utilised both formations; I'll just let Mr. Bond explain it: http://manutd24.co.uk/2011/08/01/retrospective-4-manchester-uniteds-tactics-in-1967/ If you happen to have any questions or comments after reading the article, just LMK...]
[If Best was lined up aa that "all-action"-type of "MF" in United's version of the 4-3-3 he usually wore the No.7 shirt w/Aston as the "out-&-out" winger in the No.11 shirt up on the front-line. Fans/spectators often thought that Best was a winger (in that formation) because he attacked when the opportunity presented itself and would often take the ball up the wide right-hand side of the pitch in the manner of a wide-man (forward)...]
Yeah, I see what you mean. So away at Benfica in '66 he could have played that role or was he one of 3 forwards? I see that in the '68 Final he was playing as one of 3 forwards on the right, with Aston on the left and Stiles and Crerand both supporting Charlton in midfield. When Best wore 8 or 10 he was playing as an inside forward/support striker I guess then... I know he played a lot wearing 11 too and playing from the left, so guess that was mostly in a 4-2-4... Thanks again for the insight.
[Once again, you are quite welcome, mate & I just went up to one of my locals to catch the England v. Brazil @ Wembley friendly...]
[Don't forget that since Charlton frequently wore the No.9 as the so-called "D-L C-F" for United that one of their (English-type) No.9s (Herd) or an out-&-out "predator" of a striker (Law) would often wear the No.8 or No.10 shirt. It's fairly obvious that Busby, Murphy & Co. were still thinking in "W-M" shirt numbering traditions and positional ideas IMO; which Murphy points out fairly well in "M, U & M"... Best was tried as a "card-carrying" spearhead centre-forward w/mixed results: if he was going to be utilised as a front player he was better used as a "predator"-type of ST or in rather his personal version of a free-role forward.]
[Another thing to remember w/both United and England was Charlton was quite effective at taking the ball up either flank on his own (more on the left than the right) in the manner of an "out-&-out" winger. Bond fails to mention this in his article for the FA News; but Murphy does cover it in "M,U & M"...]
Thanks again for all comments Roy (ones about Charlton as well). I think free-role forward would be a good description for Best when he played wearing 8 or 10 given his attributes and preferences to roam around and dribble. It seems from what you (and the article linked) say that if he was wearing number 7 then he may have been playing as an outright wide right player but may have been tucked in a bit more and getting more involved in midfield in a sort of unsymmetrical 4-3-3 (because Herd would not stay as wide on the right as Aston on the left). That would have some parallels to the system Garrincha played in for Brazil, but with Best as the 3rd midfielder while being the individulist on the right side in contrast to Zagallo being the 3rd midfielder for Brazil. So Best would come inside more than Garrincha if not playing as an outright outside right (and maybe even if he was) apart from when Garrincha had the free role after Pele's injury in the '62 World Cup I think. Even when playing as a left winger I don't think Best was constantly 'hugging the touchline' either though was he (although he did get down the wing and get some crosses in on occasions).
[You really don't want to head in the direction of Garrincha v. Best as a complete player comparison thread, mate...]
[Once again, you are quite welcome, mate. Another thing that affected what shirt number Best wore and where he was lined-up was what Bubsy, Murphy & Co. were trying to accomplish w/Denis Law: one thing that's often forgotten w/Law is that he was also a far above average spearhead centre-forward. I believe that Both Bond & Murphy point this out... I think that Law wasn't too keen on executing the aerial "target" aspects of the "out-&-out No.9 position: he wanted to take the most favourable attacking/scoring positions available to an aerial "finisher" rather than the "target player". Law wanted to get on the end of (on the deck) what the C-F was trying to pull off rather than being the "vertical threat" that the ball was first played to on high crosses and aerial through balls, etc. The more "target"-like centre-forward was also tactically "trending upward" in this era due to England's success in the '66 WC tournament and No.9s such as Alan Peacock of Leeds and Sir Geoff Hurst...]
This is the same match-up over @ XT.org: http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=258729 Things get a bit out of hand and watch our very own "sioux" step-up as an "enforcer" on pg.4 of the thread IIRC. I also post a link to some superb articles and features by Giles Oakley in post No.203...
This is a unique take on Best v. Garrincha fr. theother87.com: http://theother87.com/2012/06/25/by-the-numbers-7/
Nice article but the big FLAW is to include Raul in such list (just because he wore number 7) same with Cantona ... they both were purely FW (more like number 8.5 or 9.5 in tradition LOL) Second FLAW: Due to all respect to Beckham in his best 99-02 he was NOWHERE closer to Garrincha's half skills.
I realize that they were talking of players with #7 on their back. But if mentioning Cantona, Raul then many other number 7 should be mentioned, like Jairzinho, Figo (Real) Sheva (Milan), Del Pierro (Juve) and of course lately CR7 ... Garrincha, and Figo played exactly same position as of Beckham and Best a traditional RIGHT winger. Only at WC62, that garrincha was playing more like a FW (in the absence of Pele) Greatness and legend status of a player was based on his club regular season and dedcided with his performance in big games = (like Garrincha , Jairzinho at WC, Best at UCL... to have SEPARATED them with the rest : Cantona failed at NT, Raul was just good at NT, Beckham average at WC/Euro ... Call me bias but my list of #7 in ranking: ( I might have missed some names) 1- Garrincha 2- G.Best 3- Jairzinho 4- CR7 = Figo 5- Raul = Del Piero 6- Beckham = Sheva 7- Cantona (he was more skillful than all names in 5 and 6 but ... failed big for France NT)
[Beckham is actually best known playing for United and England as a "RM"/wide midfielder/whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call-it: the likes of Ryan Giggs were actually the "out-&-out" winger on the opposite flank of that four-man midfield for United. Best is a completely different issue that I mention above here...]