Future world cups: should bookings be kept as the ultimate tie-breaker? If not, what alternatives?

Discussion in 'World Cup 2018 - Russia' started by Metropolitan, Jun 29, 2018.

?

In case of perfect scoring equality, what tie-breaker would you favor in the future?

  1. Stick to the fair-play tiebreaker based on bookings as it is

    46.2%
  2. Total shots

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Total shots on goal

    23.1%
  4. Total corner kicks earned

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Total possession

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Players having spent the lesser cumulated time defending in their penalty area

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Result against the team which topped the group

    15.4%
  8. Match replay with substitutes the next day

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Shoot-out session between teams on the next day

    15.4%
  10. Coin toss

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. Other - please explain below

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Metropolitan

    Metropolitan Member+

    Paris Saint Germain
    France
    Sep 5, 2005
    Paris
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    The World Cup 2018 is the first edition in which the fair-play tie-breaker has been used.

    We're not here to discuss about Senegal's elimination, the team knew the rule beforehand and failed. Now we can still wonder if that tie-breaker once applied proved itself relevant.

    Rarely discussed when only theoretical, its application in real life actually proved some flaws :
    • Bookings are referee decisions (hence partially subjective) which will heavily depend on the game and the specific referee and won't necessarily tell something relevant about the fair-play spirit of teams.
    • In the scenario where teams are at risk of the tie-breaker being used, it incites them to refuse the game and stop playing in order to take no risk of a contact.
    • It doesn't promote attacking play for teams which are threatened to be ranked based on it.

    I've tried listing every "credible" alternatives for an ultimate tie-breaker I could think of. Now you may have other ideas. So what's your insight? Are you OK with the rule or do you believe it could be done better differently?
     
  2. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    I would vote for anything before a coin loss, since the other things are things that the teams have some control over and, more importantly, can devise their tactics to take into consideration. Personally, I would go with total shots on goal, then the most goals from run of play and the not the penalty spot, fair play points, and then corners earned. If everything is tied even then (very unlikely), I would still go with total shots. I hesitate to use possession stats as they are mostly determined by tactics and score-line but even that is better than a coin toss.
     
  3. glennaldo_sf

    glennaldo_sf Member+

    Houston Dynamo, Penang FC, Al Duhail
    United States
    Nov 25, 2004
    Doha, Qatar
    Club:
    FL Fart Vang Hedmark
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't really like the total shots on goal thing because that could just end in teams taking wild shots on goal in the last 15 minutes just to up their tally. Could make for a very strange scenario. Anything, anything, anything but the coin toss. I'll take yellow cards any day over coin toss. Total possession is another one which I kind of like. Would discourage bunkering.
     
    iggymcfly repped this.
  4. Metropolitan

    Metropolitan Member+

    Paris Saint Germain
    France
    Sep 5, 2005
    Paris
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Taking wild shots on goal in the last 15 minutes would still be better than avoiding to play the way Japan did in order to prevent any risk of booking. This being said, the complicity of Poland was not necessarily granted in that game.

    Anyway, if we all agree that attacking efforts should be favored, then the best is probably to promote either shots on goals or corner kicks earned. That would have pressured Japan to continue attacking against Poland.
     
  5. iggymcfly

    iggymcfly Member

    Jun 20, 2014
    I like the fair play. Not enough is done to prevent teams from taking cynical yellow cards so I like that there’s a possibility that once in a blue moon, it bites hem on the ass on a tiebreaker. Things like shots and possession sound nice since they’re usually indicative of who controlled a game, but they’re also very subject to manipulation. The last thing in the world I want to see is a team repeatedly shooting from 50 yard and out or just holding on to the ball in their won end to try to win a tiebreaker. Besides, I don’t think teams should be punished for the strategy they choose.
     
  6. Metropolitan

    Metropolitan Member+

    Paris Saint Germain
    France
    Sep 5, 2005
    Paris
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    The scenario of perfect equality is so unlikely that I doubt it has an influence on bookings. The fact that a player misses a game after two yellow cards is a much bigger deterrent to me.

    The key question is, if confronted to that tie-breaker, which behaviour should we favor for a team to save its advantage? Is it to stop playing like Japan did or trying to shoot on target?

    Here's a quick video about how was the last 15 minutes of the Japan vs Poland game:



    It's rather ironical to call such a behaviour "fair-play".
     
    SF19 repped this.
  7. glennaldo_sf

    glennaldo_sf Member+

    Houston Dynamo, Penang FC, Al Duhail
    United States
    Nov 25, 2004
    Doha, Qatar
    Club:
    FL Fart Vang Hedmark
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Would have been funny had they got a yellow card for time wasting and Senegal leapfrogged ahead of them.
     
  8. Phillyspur

    Phillyspur Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur
    England
    Mar 18, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I voted shootout, but it doesn't have to be on the next day. You could hold it at the end of every drawn group game. (Not necessary for games that aren't drawn, because head-to-head record then decides it)

    The shootout doesn't decide that game winner, it only decides the tie-break if needed after all group games complete.

    Some shootouts won't have been necessary, but there were only 9/48 tied group games. You could even skip them if not necessary in the last round of games (Spain-Morocco, Portugal-Iran). A little more entertainment for the fans, too.
     
    SiberianThunderT repped this.
  9. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The difference was 2 yellow cards, so 1 more for Japan wouldn't have hurt them.

    The problem with possession is that different websites have different possession. For example, in Real Madrid 1-3 Juventus in the Champions League Quarterfinal second leg, http://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=509296 says Real Madrid had 62%, https://us.soccerway.com/matches/20...al-madrid-club-de-futbol/juventus-fc/2758436/ says Real Madrid had 63%, and http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsle...ound=2000883/match=2021703/index.html?iv=true (which is official because it's UEFA) says Real Madrid had 58%. Imagine if you were trying to compare Real Madrid to a club with 60% possession in a different game. Furthermore, in 2017-2018 La Liga, Atletico Madrid was 3 points ahead of Real Madrid, and I think it's safe to say Real averaged a lot more possession. Imagine if a tie after a long season was broken by possession. This would be rare because it's extremely unlikely for clubs to be tied on points, goals score, goals allowed, and head-to-head; but if a tiebreaker would be ridiculous to use in a league, it shouldn't be used in the World Cup. Even shots, which I think should be simple to count, sometimes varies between websites. Imagine if shots were a tiebreaker and a team that loses a tiebreaker finds a source that gave them more shots than FIFA has for them, the team convinces FIFA to watch a replay to be sure, and FIFA changes who won the tiebreaker a day or two later.

    I don't like the idea of shootouts being done after every game that could affect who advances just because of the potential for ties at the end of the group. Furthermore, I'm a USA fan, and it was an accomplishment to advance over Portugal in 2014. If the Group Stage draw had gone to a shootout and Portugal would have won, Portugal would have advanced over USA.
     
  10. Every Four Years

    May 16, 2015
    Miramar, Florida
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    I think the proposal was to only use the penalties as a tiebreaker in the event that the teams were tied on points, goal difference, and goals scored, and head-to-head record. The USA had a better goal difference than Portugal in 2014, so they would have advanced anyway and it wouldn't have gone to this final tiebreaker.
     
  11. Every Four Years

    May 16, 2015
    Miramar, Florida
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    Head-to-head is already the second to last tiebreaker, meaning the fair play tiebreaker is only used in the event that the tied teams draw their match against each other, as in this case. One thing you could do is have the teams play extra time and penalties. If the teams in question are playing each other on the final matchday, this can be done right then. If not, they can do this the next day (at a venue determined in advance for this possibility). It would essentially be like continuing a match that was interrupted for whatever reason wherever it left off. I suppose playing another half hour a day after playing for 90 minutes might be undesirable in terms of rest for players, so the one change I would make to normal rules (unless the two teams are both on the pitch together on the normal final matchday) is that teams don't necessarily have to field the same lineup that was on the pitch in the final minute of the original match, so managers could field their bench players if they wished. I would also have the knockout stage scheduled (as in from the outset, not just in the event that this tiebreaker is necessary) to begin a day later than it does now to accommodate for this possibility. It's possible, of course, that this tiebreaker is not needed, in which case teams just have an extra day of rest before the knockout stage (although this would have to be compensated later in the tournament).

    Edit: Maybe disregard the bolded portion. We can't have the World Cup Final on a Monday, and we shouldn't reduce all knockout stage participants' rest (because adding another rest day before the knockout stage begins means cutting a rest day somewhere down the road, when it's probably more important). Not convenient for the teams involved in the tiebreaking extra time, but if you have to play an extra half hour on a day you thought was supposed a rest day, you only have yourself to blame for not doing enough to advance without a tiebreaker.
     

Share This Page