Futsal Before 11v11

Discussion in 'Pro Indoor Soccer' started by koppite4ever, Dec 28, 2008.

  1. koppite4ever

    koppite4ever New Member

    Mar 5, 2004
    Washington DC
    I have been using futsal and street soccer to develop players since 1991. As early as age 4 to adult level, I have had great success in combining the sport with outdoor play to nurture creatively skilled players.

    I'd like to know if there are any clubs who play futsal year round exclusively before their players go to the 11v11 outdoor game?

    Since the emergence of video tapes, coaching books, DVDs and now internet coaching sites, many coaches in America have followed the methods of Holland, Italy, Germany, England and France, all perpetuated by organizations like the NSCAA. Of course, they probably had limited success before changing their methods with the latest trends.

    I say this, because just like England, the USA has no Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Robinho, or Daniel Alves and despite the success of the women's game, the US certainly has no Marta or even a young Cristiane. Even when we saw Sissi in the 90s, it did not change the way girls' youth coaches trained their players at any level.


    Maybe, it's because America and Europe have not embraced the methods of Brazil and their culture in developing players. Maybe they resent an African and Indian sub-culture creating so many world class players of flair and do not wish to subject their mainstream youth to such creative expression with the ball. :confused:

    I am just throwing it out there, of course. I have seen all races progress well with futsal. Only to see coaches take all the love of the ball out of the player as the player has to adapt to a results-oriented style of play.

    That always led me to the question ofwhy do these coaches get the highest level coaching jobs only to fail time and time again with their boring ignorant ways.

    100 years of soccer in this great nation, 20 million youth players and the best field players they ever produced for export were Claudio Reyna, John Harkes, and Landon Donovan. Erm, pretty sad isn't it?

    Brazil remains the one nation that consistently produces world class players for men and women and the most exports of any nation on earth.

    They don't all play on a beach, and they don't all play soccer headers and volleys over a volleyball net. Not all live in hillside favelas or do caporeira.

    So what is it in their mainstream culture where the youth develop those footskills, ball control and the flair to use them?

    The common answer from the top pros from Brazil is FUTSAL!!!

    So my question is, if we are interested in developing players with world class skill, would it better for us to concentrate on kids playing futsal year round until age 14, rather than trying to win as many outdoor tournaments that you can afford?

    Surely, then, when your program spawns boys and girls with sublime technique and skill, from the futsal environment, that would be more rewarding than a piece of plastic collecting dust on your mantlepiece.

    Think about it.
  2. DavidP

    DavidP Member

    Mar 21, 1999
    Powder Springs, GA
    Futsal blew its chance years ago to become anything more than just a sub-niche sport, or even a training tool. Futsal is used all over the world, as training and as a legitimate sport (it is indoor soccer just about everywhere except North America). Futsal is too far behind American indoor in development, and the recent actions between USSF, FIFA and the futsal federation in the US put it even further behind.

    Sure, it'd be great, but it's not going to happen.
  3. Andy Zilis

    Andy Zilis Member+

    Mar 9, 2005
    Rochelle, IL
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Futsal just doesn't work for me as a spectator sport, so to be honest, I'm not aware the problems the USSF has had with it recently. The reason it doesn't work (and why I vastly prefer American indoor soccer) is that when you have a small field with a hard, fast surface, the ball tends to leave the field of play a LOT. The games become so fragmented with play constantly stopping and starting that it becomes difficult to watch.

    I assume that the reason it is good for developing skillful players is the fast playing surface, but I don't see how adding walls to the field detracts from that.
  4. koppite4ever

    koppite4ever New Member

    Mar 5, 2004
    Washington DC
    It's interesting reading all your comments above that so far nobody has spoken of the tricks, footwork, and technique that futsal nurtures.

    Who cares about winning a World Cup in futsal. I am talking about developing top players for outdoor which indoor soccer with walls does not do.

    Futsal is a far better spectator sport than indoor soccer because futsal requires far more skill. The moves used in futsal to break down defenses are what is entertaining. I never see Freddy Adu like indiviudal skills in indoor soccer. Too much use of the walls in that game. But in futsal you see tricks all the time and so to the real soccer fan, that is the entertainment.

    In both games there are plenty of goals and one touch plays so nothing different there. It's the ball mastery and wow factor that puts futsal on top.

    As to the ball going out all the time. Tell the kids to dribble more instead of banging down the line all the time and you may actually see some skill develop. I hate seeing "run and gun" like teams in futsal with idiot coaches trying to use futsal as just another arena to win a game.

    Use futsal for skill promotion not self-promotion.
  5. Phil Cheesesteak

    Phil Cheesesteak New Member

    Oct 27, 2008
    winning a futsal world cup would not seem to be on 'every freaking country in the world's' to-do list, it seems to me, so, yeah.

    but other than brasilians, do we really have evidence that futsal develops top players for outdoor?

    says you. i watched some of this most recent cup and...well, okay. nice moves, but the game is played at a slow pace that doesn't appeal to me.

    if you like it, great. knock yourself out. but i don't think a lot of people in this country at least, share that opinion. and i think futsal's actual effects on developing star players are overstated. oooh, there's a commercial with ronaldinho playing futsal? that must be why he's so good, then!
  6. Kulspruta

    Kulspruta New Member

    Jul 26, 2007
    BH, Brazil
    Cruzeiro Belo Horizonte
    Nat'l Team:
    Found this thread by accident, but here are my 2 cents. Futsal's effects on developing players are not overstated, and Indoor soccer with walls will never be as entertaining as futsal. Try grabbing some of the Brazil games from the last futsal World Cup and I bet you'll get to see something very exciting, and definitely not slow. In the biggest cities in Brazil schools rarely have the space to build football pitches, so just about every single male child plays futsal. I have played futsal in my youth, and all of my friends have played futsal in their youth. We're not soccer stars, but I bet I wouldn't look bad playing anywhere in the world.
  7. Gareth

    Gareth Member

    Dec 13, 2000
    yawn, I like playing futsal. I can watch it. We should make this a sticky so we don't have to keep going over this about every 6 months. The reason Brazil produce world class players is that there are about 80 million people for whom soccer is a religion in that country. You play and develop your skills on your own, much like in this country where people develop their basketball skills on the playground of major urban locals. Its not about Futsal. Futsal is a great skill developer. But making kids play futsal isn't going to suddenly catapult the US into the best soccer nation in the world. Indoor soccer is a niche sport, generally played as a recreational release, and by second rate players that couldn't make it into Major League Soccer or professional contracts in Europe and still wanted to continue their soccer career for minimum wage pay.
  8. Phil Cheesesteak

    Phil Cheesesteak New Member

    Oct 27, 2008
    i have no doubt that brazilians feel that way.

    i also have no doubt that americans don't feel that way, and that your opinion of our brand of indoor soccer is to be expected. it's how much of the world looks at things american when it comes to soccer. it's ours, it's bizarre, and it is what it is.

    but please, tell me again, outside of the brazilians (who seem to be pretty good players anyway), what great outdoor players has futsal 'developed?'

    there's more to being a great outdoor player than being able to do tricks with the ball. the cruyff turn wasn't what made him a great player.
  9. Phil Cheesesteak

    Phil Cheesesteak New Member

    Oct 27, 2008
    oh, also...here's how you know futsal isn't taken seriously by 'every freakin nation on the planet:' we qualified for the world cup.

    that's taking nothing away from coach tozer and the guys, who busted their butts, and kudos to them. but if we're as far behind it as people say, and we still qualified and there were only 18 or 19 nations better than us, that tells me it's not exactly a worldwide priority.
  10. kingshark

    kingshark Member+

    Mar 3, 2006
    Try to watch the last futsal World Cup, you will find this is indeed a very entertaining game. Indoor soccer is good too, but I must admit futsal is more like real soccer.

    By the way, if you don't want to be depressed, please don't watch USA's game in that tournament. USA's 4 games were all awful to watch. USA were schooled by every team they met--Paraguay, Italy, Portugal and Thailand. The field was small and no wall for our indoor soccer players, so they totally don't know how to control and move the ball and create chances.
  11. NSL2004

    NSL2004 Member+

    Jul 23, 2002
    Which is exactly why I prefer American indoor soccer. It's LESS like "real" soccer which is boring. Indoor soccer is more like hockey and I always said we should crib what they're doing instead of putting pretentious suffixes on team names like FC and SC. It's as bad as Madonna talking with a fake British accent.

    We've said this before, but it's a shame they didn't call "indoor soccer" something without "soccer" in the name. It might be more popular now and we wouldn't have these territorial arguments.
  12. Phil Cheesesteak

    Phil Cheesesteak New Member

    Oct 27, 2008
    i did try to watch and i didn't find it entertaining. you did and did, and that's fine. different strokes for different folks.

    without all the excitement.

    honestly, if i wanted to watch something more like real soccer, i'll watch real soccer. it's on almost every day of the year.

    indoor soccer with outdoor strategy and slow pace doesn't appeal to me. as, i'm sure, the frenetic pace of american indoor soccer doesn't appeal to people in other countries (hell, it ain't all that appealing to americans, either, judging by the looks of things, but nobody in this country would watch futsal as a paid spectator sport).

    maybe it's because i was exposed to 'our' brand of indoor soccer first, long before i ever heard of futsal.

    but, to me, futsal's similarities to 'real' soccer don't make it appealing to me. maybe to you, and that's cool. but not to me.
  13. koppite4ever

    koppite4ever New Member

    Mar 5, 2004
    Washington DC
    With the exception of headhunter, who seems to have lost his head without reading the post first, all have valid points.

    But the point I am asking is:

    Who has played futsal year round before the 11v11 game?

    Futsal does not make all players into world class players for outdoor. But it is the way you promote the game that develops the skill.

    The futsal world cup does not interest me beyond watching Brazil play in it, but I do watch regular futsal games because I enjoy watching the tricks. That is the attention getter for people who soccer purists. We appreciate the skill, not the score.

    In urban areas of America, the kids are gagging for a chance at a sport where they do not have to be the tallest, fastest or biggest. Futsal gives every average sized kid a chance to play a team sport at a super low cost. Outdoor basketball courts can be multi-tiered for futsal use and suddenly you will have millions of inner city kids playing a version of futsal every day in their schools and rec centers.

    I totally believe if urban America takes to futsal, then futsal will be massive here. That is because youth culture transcends from urban culture.

    For example, in England, nobody cares about the NFL, NBA, MLB and certainly not college sports. But go to any city and you will see non-Americans wearing NY Yankees caps, Georgetown caps, Raiders jackets, and Lakers gear. Why??? Because they see American street kids wearing this stuff and want to relate to their street culture.

    So if inner city futsal kicks off, I am sure by age 14, we will start to have world class skill coming from our cities like nothing we ever saw before.

    I mean, come on people, it's not like you have not tried for 100 years outdoor already and failed.
  14. NSL2004

    NSL2004 Member+

    Jul 23, 2002
    The tricks are cool, but they need to finish it with a goal. In some clips I've seen it looks like the defender loses interest after the peacock does his tricks for two long without trying to advance the ball.

    But I'm a little surprised there's no futsal/street soccer equivalent of And1 basketball where guys try to fake each other out of their shoes and everyone goes "Daaaaaaaaaaaamn."

    If the XSL thinks there's a cult market for mere juggling you'd think there'd be a place for this.
  15. Phil Cheesesteak

    Phil Cheesesteak New Member

    Oct 27, 2008
    you know why urbanites haven't started futsal all over? because soccer (in its many forms) is not seen as 'the sport of the people' here as it is in other countries.

    soccer in america is for white suburban kids, not urban kids. you can't get street cred playing futsal in the street. you can get street cred playing basketball. anybody can learn to play basketball if they have a modicum of athletic ability. they can do something - learn to dribble, or they're tall and can rebound and block shots or they can shoot, whatever.

    the skill involved in doing futsal tricks (seriously - if i want to watch someone do tricks all day, i'll get a fricking dog) is more difficult and takes more practice time than urbanites with short attention spans and - let us not forget - very little anticipation of a payoff at the end, will devote time to. not to mention the fact that they can watch the x games on television, and they can watch the nba or and1 on television, but they can't watch futsal on television or have guys to emulate except for what they see in a 30 second nike commercial.

    nice idea. ain't happening. won't happen. no way, no how.
  16. Phil Cheesesteak

    Phil Cheesesteak New Member

    Oct 27, 2008
    i can live with that.

    sorry, i know it's your deal and all...but, seriously...i can live with that.
  17. NSL2004

    NSL2004 Member+

    Jul 23, 2002
    I think soccer is a lot easier than basketball. Maybe I just think that because I'm OK at soccer and have played it all my life, but terrible at basketball. You have to be tall (usually) to go far in basketball, but you probably don't have to be over 6 foot to play on the streets.

    The soccer tricks are harder, but you don't really use those in a game. If someone futsal guy had great tricks -- and scored five goals a game -- I might pay attention. All the tricks in the world are meaningless if you don't score.

    That's the difference between ice hockey and figure skating. Alex Ovechkin can't do a triple axle, but he's a lot better at hockey than Brian Boitano.

    Outdoor soccer is figure skating, indoor soccer is hockey. I guess I'm too results oriented to wrap my head around the "beautiful game."
  18. Tom Higginson

    Tom Higginson Member

    Jan 12, 2000
    Those that keep saying Futsal requires more skill to play than indoor soccer because of the boards, just don't understand indoor soccer. Like somehow a pass to another player is more difficult than a pass off the boards to another player. Futsal is chess and indoor soccer is dimensional chess. Indoor soccer simply has more options.
  19. Phil Cheesesteak

    Phil Cheesesteak New Member

    Oct 27, 2008
    but, tom...you can do tricks and stuff in futsal. that's why we should watch. :D

    seriously, guys like zungul and preki had moves, but they were within the context of the game and they were moves designed to get open and/or score.

    if you just did the kind of nike commercial stuff that attracts koppite4ever during an indoor game, somebody would whack your ass on the next shift.
  20. Phil Cheesesteak

    Phil Cheesesteak New Member

    Oct 27, 2008
    how many tricks can you do in soccer?

    just as there are guys who could play on the and1 tour or slamball or any of those other trick-laden things but who would get their asses kicked in actual basketball, all the tricks in the world aren't going to help you if you can't actually play the game. and there's more to playing the game than being able to do crazy stuff with a heavy futsal ball.
  21. NSL2004

    NSL2004 Member+

    Jul 23, 2002
    I can't even juggle, but I can man-mark, block shots, direct my teammates, and occasionally make a decent pass.

    But if I played in the World Cup and the NBA Finals I would be a lot more exposed in the NBA Finals.
  22. Phil Cheesesteak

    Phil Cheesesteak New Member

    Oct 27, 2008
    then koppite4ever won't be interested to watch you play. he needs to see tricks, dammit! ;)
  23. DavidP

    DavidP Member

    Mar 21, 1999
    Powder Springs, GA
    Back to the poster's original question:

    I think small-sided soccer of any stripe is necessary to develop players, be it futsal, British five/six-a-side, or just getting together after school and kicking it around for a couple of hours. The nature of the low-bounce futsal ball allows for more control, and thus more touches, but you can learn that with a regular ball as well (smaller is better; I had my kids play with a tennis ball before. They complained, but it worked to some degree). There's no magic potion or book that is going to be the "thing" for soccer development, besides playing as much as you can, both in structured and unstructured environments. Free play is where most of the "greats" learned all the fancy stuff anyway, not from some coach (and I have been a coach, so I can say this) running up and down the sidelines, holding a clipboard, and incessantly screaming PAAAAAAASSSSSSS!!!!!!! :D

    Also, in most cases, I think you'll find players are either futsal players, or outdoor soccer players. Very few have crossed over either way, as far as I know.

    But hey, if it works for you, go for it.
  24. Gareth

    Gareth Member

    Dec 13, 2000
    I apologize for going off half cocked, but this argument deteriorates into why people should go to watch Futsal over Indoor.

    Here's my 2 cents.

    Small sided games mean more touches, more learning opportunity and more fun for kids that normally have a less than 5% chance of actually being in contact with the ball at any one time. I just played in an outdoor alumni game, where I ran for 30 minutes and only had realistic possession of the ball maybe 3 times.

    I love playing indoor because I get to cherry pick a la Steve Zungul or Dale Ervine and my team generally give me the ball because I can finish. I get lots of chances to touch the ball and even if I screw it up, I will get another chance pretty quickly. Futsal, from a development standpoint really has little difference especially at a youth level.

    Youth soccer teams aren't using indoor much as a development tool. Tom, correct me if I am wrong, but the best you can usually hope for is as a bonding tool to make sure teams stay together year round and you don't get your best players recruited away.

    Great players grew up playing futsal in Brazil. It isn't necessarily the difference. They all speak Portuguese too, doesn't mean that speaking Portuguese is the missing secret to developing great players.

    The secret to Brazilian success is the best athletes choose soccer, and are playing it from about the time they can walk, organized or not. They play at every opportunity and play with a ball on their own if there isnt a game to play in, which is very unlikely. The US is too structured, and our player pool vanishes at about the age of 13 for great athletes.

    Realistically, the problem with this thread is that it belongs in a "player development" discussion, not a "pro indoor soccer" discussion.
  25. DavidP

    DavidP Member

    Mar 21, 1999
    Powder Springs, GA
    Well, I'm not so sure about that, Syd. When the MISL started out, it was a lot like outdoor, besides the obvious. It was great. People ate it up (it's funny, but Atlanta always did better with indoor soccer attendance-wise than with outdoor). When indoor got away from its roots, and introduced all the goofiness (huge goals, MPS, etc), that's when the interest began to die, because the quality and skill eroded (AISA/NPSL/MISL II was always inferior to MISL I and CISL/PSA/WISL, IMO). It's probably too late now, but if indoor went back to its roots, and the quality went back up, the interest might go up as well (but like I said, it's probably too late now).

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