Never heard of Palermo being arch-enemies of Cagliari, quite the contrary, since I read many friendly messages between both supporters in the Cagliari forum. Palermo is a long time far from serie a or the top part of serie b, so few reasons for being rivals. Cagliari's last 10/15 years were up and down between serie a and serie b (with excellent seasons like the one we reached UEFA cup semifinal and ugly ones like the last 3). The real only historical friend of Cagliari is Sampdoria. No Lazio, no Verona.
Re: 2003-4 Serie B discussions [R] sardus_pater, My source on the friends-enemies matrix was an article in the book Fear and Loathing in World Football (2001) called "Three Confrontations and a Coda: Juventus of Turn and Italy" by Patrick Hazard and David Gould. The article includes a table called "Networks of Fear and Loathing in Italian Football" (no kidding). To be true I was wondering about the accuracy of the thing. Here is what it lists for Cagliari: Principle Fan Groups --------- Ultras Curva Nord, Sconvolts, Eagles Friends -------- Lazio, Torino, Enemies --------- Palermo, Roma I was wondering how much politics have to do with team rivalries-friendships. As I understand it Lazio and Verona have right-wing associations, thus their friendship. Are Bologna and Roma "left-wing friends"? The conclusion I was drawing in my previous post were part-conjecture, part-tongue in cheek. Could you give me a run down of the friends-enemies for some of the teams competing for promotion. Do you think you could map out some of the Serie B teams for me. The previously mentioned article focuses on teams that were in Serie A when the article was written. Here is what it gives for Fiorentina: Friends ------ Verona, Torino, Catanzaro, Modena, Empoli, Sampdoria Enemies -------- Bologna, Milan, Roma, Genoa, Juventus, Pisa
Re: 2003-4 Serie B discussions [R] Just from observing the games the past several seasons, I've also noticed that Reggina is friends with Lazio and Torino. Who can forget Reggina rolling over nicely for Lazio to help them win their Scudetto. And the farcical "game" against Torino which Reggina won to gain their first-ever promotion to Serie A.
Re: 2003-4 Serie B discussions [R] Ok, I've gone through the previously mentioned article and I've divided the teams into two groups based on what appears to me to be a broad front of alliances. I noticed a pattern. For example, Fiorentina, Verona, Torino, and Lazio tend to appear in the same lists either as an "enemies" or a "friends". Similarly, Roma and Bologna always appear together.This is extremely simplistic, but here it goes... From what I can see most teams (most but not all) fall into one of two camps. The logic is as follows. If you are friendly with Lazio, you are enemies with Roma. Friends with Verona, enemies with Chievo. Friends with Sampdoria, enemies with Genoa. Since most teams hate Juventus, most everyone is friendly with Torino. You get the idea. GROUP A _____ Lazio, Verona, Sampdoria, Inter, Torino, Fiorentina, Cesena, Bari, Modena, Cagliari, Udinese, Ascoli, Como, Triestina, Atalanta, Catania, and Reggina (based on SueB's testimony) GROUP B _____ Roma, Chievo, Genoa, Milan, Juventus, Lecce, Foggia, Pescara, Bologna, Napoli, Ancona, Palermo I've avoided calling these right and left, or white and red, but I think that you could make this distinction. Local rivalries, of course, take precedence. Most teams have a longer list of enemies than they do friends. That is as it should be. Smaller teams are part of these broad alliances, but also have their local disputes. The big clubs can't be bothered. (I put Juventus in group B because all the A teams hate them. There are a few B teams that are friendly with Juventus, though the big B teams despise Juventus)
Re: 2003-4 Serie B discussions [R] This is all pretty interesting stuff, picaraza. Do you mind if I split the posts on topic out into its own separate thread?
Re: 2003-4 Serie B discussions [R] SueB, No problem. I'll try to reproduce the information in the friend-enemy table from that article. After I posted the list I realized there are so many contradictions that the broad alliances are probably not always all that accurate. I suspect that the northern-southern rivalry is probably just as potent.
Re: 2003-4 Serie B discussions [R] The following data is from an article in the book "Fear and Loathing in World Football". This is quite a good book that collects some good, and some great articles. The article about Italy is especially interesting. (Also Earthquake fans, there is an article about why everyone in Mexico hates Club America) I think that this info is from the late 90s, so the alliances may have changed. I've added some notes based on things others have brought up in the thread in parenteses. Bari +++ Friends: Lazio, Ascoli, Torino, Inter, Cesena Enemies: Lecce, Roma, Juventus, Foggia, Milan, Pescara Bologna +++++ Friends: Milan, Napoli, Genoa, Pescara, Ancona Enemies: Fiorentina, Verona, Cesena, Lazio, Modena Cagliari +++++ Friends: Lazio, Torino, (Sampdoria) Enemies: Palermo, Roma Fiorentina +++++ Friends: Verona, Torino, Catanzaro, Modena, Empoli, Sampdoria Enemies: Bologna, Milan, Roma, Genoa, Juventus, Pisa Genoa +++++ Friends: Torino, Napoli, Vicenza, Pisa, Ancona Enemies: Sampdoria, Verona, Inter, Juventus, Lazio, Milan Inter +++++ Friends: Verona, Sampdoria, Lazio, Bari, Udinese Enemies: Milan, Juventus, Bologna, Roma, Ascoli Juventus ++++++ Friends: Avellino Enemies: Torino, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio Lazio ++++++ Friends: Bari, Torino, Ascoli, Inter, Como, Triestina Enemies: Roma, Genoa, Milan, Napoli, Bologna, Sampdoria, Lecce Napoli +++++ Friends: Bari, Torino, Ascoli, Inter, Como, Triestina Enemies: Lazio, Verona, Inter, Atalanta, Lecce, Sampdoria Roma ++++++ Friends: Bologna Enemies: Lazio, Inter, Juventus, Bari, Milan, Atalanta Sampdoria +++++++ Friends: Verona, Inter, Atalanta, Cremoneso, Fiorentina, (acc to sardus_pater Cagliari ) Enemies: Genoa, Torino, Bologna, Milan, Pisa, Lazio Torino ++++++ Friends: Genoa, Pisa, Lazio, Bari, Fiorentina, Cagliari Enemies: Juventus, Milan, Inter, Atalanta, Verona, Roma Hellas Verona +++++ Friends: Fiorentina, Inter, Sampdoria, Lecce, Catania Enemies: Milan, Roma, Genoa, Juventus, Napoli, Bologna (and as I know from reading Tim Parks' "A Season with Verona" : Vicenza, Chievo Verona All please help us to correct/update these listings. Also I'd like to put something together for Serie B teams... especially those near promotion.
Re: 2003-4 Serie B discussions [R] I am not an expert because I am not an ultras, I am a big fan but not an ultras. Anyway Principle fan groups: sconvolts, furiosi (ultras) Lots of cagliari clubs in whole italy (non ultras) Here are some news about Cagliari's friends and rivals taken from the empoli ultras site (they should know this kind of stuff). http://www.tifonet.it/empoli/rangers/avversari/cagliari.html Amicizie (friends): Verona, Foggia, Sampdoria (UTC con Sconvolts), Atalanta (Furiosi con Wild Kaos), Parma, Lecce, Olbia Rivalità (enemies): Venezia, Napoli, Milan, Lazio, Inter, Torres, Cosenza, Salernitana, Fiorentina, Tempio These are things that affect ultras rather that the common fan, anyway. I can tell you that the rivalry against napoli is strong also amongst the common fans due to the bad treatment we received from locals in naples during a playoff (to stay in serie a) against Piacenza. A lost and very sad playoff...
Re: 2003-4 Serie B discussions [R] Okay, I'm going to split these interesting posts about team "friendships", etc into another thread. In the meantime, it's been confirmed that the Messina-Venezia game will be played in Bari.
roma used to be friendly with bologna but not anymore. we are friendly with palermo & sambenedettese but that's about it.
Here's an interesting page on tifonet.it that details each teams friends "gemellaggi" and enemies "rivalità". Just click on the team in the drop down boxes on the right to see the results. http://www.tifonet.it/guerraepace/
This is really interesting. When Palermo and Messina join serie A next season there is going to be quite of bit of confrontation. The Sicilian teams HATE the Northerners like Milan,Inter, and Juve and will probably try to show them that they can hang just as good.
Well, actually, since those clubs have been out of Serie A for so long, I expect the games with the northern clubs will be tough but not in a bitter way. The hatred will be reserved for each other. If both Sicilian teams make it, the battle will be to see which one of the two finishes higher in the league. It's wierd - the South has a love-hate relationship with the North. Most southerners actually have a favorite team among the "bigs". My Calabrian-born husband follows Juventus. Others in his family follow Inter or Milan. Of course, there is no doubt - when Reggina plays Juventus (they almost never did until the last few years) - his heart is for Reggina all the way. And most of the small clubs try to establish a good relationship with at least one big club (hence, the "friends" half of this list).
Yes the Sicilian teams will fight amongest themselves to be the top team of Sicily but these teams also dispise the northerns for thier accomplishments and thier bragging. My father is from Palermo but loves Roma (maybee because he was raised there) but then again Roma is not as North as it could be so i can't really finish my theory. I dout that Palermo will make "friends" with a Northern team (besides Padova there in Serie C) because when people diliberetly tackle a member from thier team the rest of guys guys start running over to get ready to swing (especially thier goalie) and this happened 3 weeks ago when the played Napoli another southernish team. We'll just see what happens next season.
Palermo is already "friends" with Roma, which (as you say) isn't a northern team, but is certainly one of the big teams. Roma moved both of their forced "neutral" site games to Palermo this month. Since Roma hates all the big northern teams (Juve, Milan, Inter), you're right, they (Palermo) almost assuredly won't befriend any of those three.
Talking about Sambenedettese (serie C1): friends Rimini (C1), Civitanovese (Eccellenza), Chieti (C1), Foligno (D), AS Roma (A) enemies Ascoli (B), the arch-enemy!!! (for regional rivality...), Pescara (B); minor enemies: Fermana (C1), Vis Pesaro (C1), Teramo (C1), Perugia (A)
Welcome to BigSoccer, Basilare. Thanks for the info. It's always good to hear from somebody who follows a smaller club.
Interestingly enough, Juve has historically played many home games recently in Palermo, including CL games, often because of the "cold" atmosphere at Delle Alpi where the stadium appears empty most of the time. The support Juve have enjoyed at La Favorita is tremendous...go figure! Juve does have a tremendous number of fans all over the country, as do Milan and Inter.
Re: 2003-4 Serie B discussions [R] In the past, I can think of gemellaggi that Napoli have enjoyed with Roma, Ancona, and Palermo although most faded from memory for both sides or were suddenly broken (as with Roma). Bari is most definitely NOT our friend since they are close to Salernitana, which is our most bitter rival by far at the moment. Inter has never been our friend either....and I dont know where they got the Como and Triestina ones from. Our only surviving gemellaggio and the only team we are truly "friends" with is Genoa. Its almost disgusting how much we "love" each other, you would forget the two teams were actually supposed to compete against each other on the field. To the hate list, definitely add Juve (as with everyone else really), Milan, Brescia, and virtually every other northern team. Things got rough with Cosenza fans in recent years too.
Re: 2003-4 Serie B discussions [R] Ascoli are no longer friends with Napoli. triestina are friends with Ascoli thats why it may of been mentioned that Triestina where friends with Napoli. Ascoli Rivals - Samba, and Ancona because there the only one's that they ever play in le Marche. The Samb derby is huge because Samb is in the Ascoli province. Other teams Ascoli dislike are Pescara, Ternana, Cesena, Livorno and Fiorentina. Friends - Torino, Lazio, Triestina and Teramo?
Milan have a gemellagio with Brescia (Ultras Brescia 1911). Also amicizie with Viking Salernitana, CUCN Reggina, and Ultras Unione Venezia Mestre.
Re: 2003-4 Serie B discussions [R] Some of the information in here is inaccurate. Are you getting it from multiple sources or just that list in the book? Maybe it's just out of date...
Juventus also have a brutal rivalry with Fiorentina. Now that Fiorentina are back in Serie A there is going to be alot of hate against the Juventini this year.
thought napoli and fiorentina got on,judging by all the business conducted between the two,also true for piacenza and napoli. As regarding why everybody has a "mistrust" of Hellas and Vicenza(North east really)is it not an italian thing.....the image of xenophobia in the north east coupled with a few high profile race orientated cases from a few years back fixed the view in many italians minds particularly when the country as a whole was becoming more racially tolerate.Could be true for Lazio with some of their "supporters"