Re: 2004-05 NBA thread If you are a player and you have seen fans sucker punching teamates from behind, and you see fans on the court with security not controlling them and the situation, what do you do, knock them out, walk up kindly and kiss them, or run away to another situation that might be brewing in the arena? Yes the Pistons and Pacers share some of the blame for the situation, but when will the USA quit giving fans a free reign to act however they want to. It seems funny when that the most overbearing security is in Soccer. The fault of this incidence lies on the city of Detroit.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Back in the day,basketball players were called "cagers".The reason was that most games where large crowds were expected were played with wire fences around the court to keep the fans back. In HS ball,there have been instances of closed door games after brawls,but a school isn't a profitmaking business.I doubt the NBA would force a closed door game,but maybe civil authorities should. If you have any historical perspective this isn't new.The interesting thing will be the response.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread this was disturbing on several levels #1 to the degree that espn is backing the players, it is quite clear they know who is signing their checks... the nba #2 the notion that wallace is being depicted as the bad guy because he fouled someone... it happens, even when it's hard... if it's too hard, it's taken care of by the league, but no foul starts a fight with the fans... that is simply dumber than a rock #3 that fans were throwing things at the players... 100% ignorant #4 that players went into the crowd... it's beer... i've been hit by beer at various sporting events... grow up... i've been hit numerous times in crew stadium (been hit with food as well), you know better than to retaliate... let that person get what's coming to them from the law... instead of giving that guy (or in this case, probably an innocent guy a great case in court) #5 did you see how many solid punches came from the players!?!??! #6 that pretty much no one in this instance is talking about staying the ******** calm... know this... ******** happens... know this, don't let it effect you #7 anyone want to guess how many total games the suspensions are for??? my bet is under 100 #8 you are a pro, you are in someone else's home... and you don't think they are going to have some fun with you (even if it is over the top)... YOU STILL IGNORE THEM i am just glad that the last year i liked the nba was the year jordan came back the first time... and when he came back... i was infuriated
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread from everything i've seen... artest got the wrong guy... the guy artest got had a beer in his hand meaning he didn't throw it
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread LIKE A pacers fan i should say that : 10 game suspension for ben wallace for making fight started "overreacting". 3-games in detroit without ffans --a.k.a. behind closed doors. well we have another rivary this season=IND-DET,DEN-MIN,LAL-SAC. NO ALCHOHOL DRINKS FOR BOLD GUYS- except root beer in a small doze. GO PACERS ,NUGGETS,KNICKS-my favorites in nba!!!
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread i have yet to see why wallace should get a large suspension yeah... maybe a game or two... but he didn't start that... a fan pissed off artest, artest lost his cool and artest made everything become world war three
Re: WHat did you think about the Detroit/Indiana fight??? It's probably a good time to be an attorney in Detroit.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread In my humble opinion, a lot of blame to go around here. Way to much to list. Players, fans, Piston's management/security. I think that Joe Dumars is correct. No side can be absolved from this disgrace. Maybe we can learn something from this. The question is will the economics be sacrificed by leagues in order to achieve this: 1) stop selling the "liquid courage" aka alcohol earlier in the game move the closest seats back further from the court 2) Move seats further back from courts/fields/bullpens, etc. Some sort of greater 'barrier" 3) Hire more security and better prepared/trained security. 4) A clear message to players that they cannot not enter into the stands for any reason, no matter how abusive the fans become. No good can come of it. 5) Prosecution to the fullest extent of the law for fans that enter playing areas or throw objects. Just some idea for starters...
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread There had been a lot of rumors out here in Sactown about a possible Peja Stojakovic for Ron Artest trade (plus other players from both teams, I think). Talentwise, it would make a lot of sense. After last night's incident at The Palace though, I think the Kings and Kings fans would be happy dealing with the head cases we already have.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread been watching it over and over. detroit fans (scum) are the reason for this, not Artest. extra credit goes out to O'Neal for sticking up for his teammate. don't throw anything at the players, don't go on the court. period.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread At some point, something like this was bound to happen. That it was Artest is hardly surprising, and while I think the guy is a dick and should be suspended for going into the stands, at the same time I can't help but think, "Way to go". Buying a ticket does not entitle fans to say and do whatever they want. Athletes hear some outrageous things, night in and night out - and for the most part, they brush it off. Which is more then what most people would do in their everyday lives. Game 6 of the ALCS had to be played with riot police on the field because fans couldn't stop themselves from throwing crap on the field. They got away with it too. Fans get away with this because in a crowd there is anonymity, and knowing there are no consequences for their actions enboldens them. Fans have been constantly given a free pass in these altercations. They talk and talk and talk, and when confronted they say, "what did I do?". Maybe they do it because they know if they get a reaction they can get a settlement. I don't know. Maybe a player finally getting sick of it a taking it to the fans will curve some of this. Should Artest be suspended? Yes. But he didn't start this fight. This has been a fight brewing for sometime, and a large part of the responsibility rests on the fans.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Your posts from last night are a perfect example of why it's better judgment after a night of clubbing to go straight to bed, rather than post here like a drunken fool. It's no coincidence that Ron Artest is involved here. Does anybody think if it was Tim Duncan who had beer splashed on him that this riot would've happened? Would Duncan have laid passive aggressively on the scorer's table instead of walking away near center court until cooler heads prevailed? Artest is a punk. The fan who threw the cup should get a lifetime ban from the NBA. But, if some player comes rampaging into the stands near me and I can't get away from the fracas, I'm going to start throwing down too. There is no excuse for the incident that Artest caused. Wallace's overreaction to a hard foul was no different than what happens almost every night in the NBA. Artest is the one who added fuel to the flame thru his insane, taunting, and provocative antics on the scorer's table.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Short of pulling out a shiv and killing the guy, anything that happens to a fan on the court if fair game.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Yup. And the argument that Artest somehow initiated things by laying on the scorer's table is absurd. Due to his reputation, he wanted to show that he was staying out of things, and did it in a rather showy way.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Artest's reaction doesn't surprise me. The man has the intelligence of a lump of crap. Getting hit by a plastic cup full of beer doesn't justify going into the stands and punching fans. I've heard enough from him (while he was with the Bulls) to know that that man lacks any kind of common sense or functional intelligence. His quotes on his musical career and the fact that reporters had to explain to him what the word "integrity" meant, are enough to show that he could care less about basketball. He should be suspended for a very long time.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread hahahaaha, i know i have my history of posting while drunk on these boards, but i was in a normal state of mind last night. i agree that tim duncan probably would have brushed it off, but that doesnt make what artest did wrong. i still think it is amazing how damning people are on artest. i know the guy is a punk, but no matter what he does, you will find something wrong with it. he was not taunting anyone last night.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread The initial shot to Artest is a few games by itself. Later he threw a towell or something at Artest while he was just lying on the table. Artest made little reaction to this, but it probably flared up his emotions a lot more and set the stage for what happened next. And Wallace just persisted for like 5 minutes. After hitting Artest if he had just stopped and left the court like he was supposed to, nothing more would have happened. But it was literally 5 minutes he was being held back, while Artest just lays there. And this is obviously what incited the fan who threw the beer. I agree that the hit alone is worth only a few games. But Wallace kept pushing the issue, all while Artest's and fan's emotion are building up. Wallace is the only one who was looking for a fight when this thing started. I'm not absolving Artest. But Wallace is the cause for this whole thing. Artest's reaction was wrong but he did't start this, Wallace did. And it wasn't the hit on Artest that started it, it was his persistence. He wanted to fight and that gave everyone time to get riled up.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Marc Stein wrote the inevitable, this will only make the NBA more popular article. If this thread is any indication, he's right. I've never seen so many new people posting in this thread at once. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=1927536
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread I agree, and anything that happens to a player who goes into the stands is fair game too.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Ian you're right that Artest's involvement shouldnt come as a surprise to anyone. The guy is mentally unstable, and honestly I didnt think anything could top his request a few weeks ago for some time off. I stand corrected. The NBA should grant him his wish and ban him for the rest of the season. There's just too many factors that point to a repitition of something stupider coming in the months ahead. However, let me stop there and disagree with your take on the situation. Specifically, I think everyone though is being blinded by Artest's involvement to the point where little blame is being put on the all the other actors involved, who were more than willing to make this into the mess it became. First off Ben Wallace. This guy's ego is getting bigger than his fro. Two seasons ago he would have walked away from a hard, but not necessarily dirty, foul. Now he's on the cover of a Playstation game and in commercials and thinks he's gods gift to the world. He didnt stop after that stupid punch to Artest's neck, and clearly wanted something to break out. He should be punished almost as severly as Artest. Second the Detroit "fans". I dont care what Artest and Jackson did... there are at least 10 guys in the stands who thought they were Mike Tyson and took cheapshots and were looking for a good fight. Sucker punches from behind, coming on to the court etc... very manly indeed, bunch of white trash. Even more disgusting were the fans throwing thousands of dollars of concessions on the players as they left. Clearly they were looking to push more buttons. Then of course there's the person who threw a chair. That guy deserves to be beaten silly. And all this talk about "the kids" and people in danger... it was 90% fans who were stampeding over older people and kids to beat the crap out of the players. Overall, Detroit has only cemented its reputation as a lost cause. The trash that was sitting there last night should be ashamed. There are 11 players on Indiana, and at least 100 fans who decided they were super tough. I dont care what anyone says... no brawl would have broken out in Toronto, or Seattle, or even Boston... you know, cities with some class. I'm skeptical that NBA will take necessary action. Indiana needs to be punished hard, and Detroit needs to play some games in an empty stadium with no alcohol... unfortunately we're talking about the top two teams in the east, and the NBA will want their stars around to increase interest in the league. You can sure the punshiments will be less severe than they would had this been Toronto in Atlanta or the Clippers in Charlotte.
Re: WHat did you think about the Detroit/Indiana fight??? Did I watch the same incident as everyone else? It seems everyone is saying Detroit fans are the reason for the near riot, and Artest was justifed in assulting a fan. Bottom line is Artest incited this incident. NBA players are given instuction on the behavoir that the league expects of them and they are specificly instucted as to how to hadle confrontations with fans. 1. Wallace overreaction was not justified. I saw the replay the foul was late but Big Ben went to far with his reaction. He phyiscally put his hands on Artest's face in a threating manner and deserves a fine and suspention for his conduct. 2. Despite what Steven A Smith and John Saunders seem to think Artest was not just innocently minding his own business. Wallace was pissed and while Artest rightly avoid further conflict he laid down on the scores table put his arms behind his head.put on a commontator's headphones..not because he was calm and wanted to relax but because he was trying to show Wallace he wasn't sweating him and he was trying to show him up. 3. Having a plastic cup of beer thrown at you doesn't mean you can "defend yourself" by phyically assulting another person. Those are completely different. Why didn't Artest try to knock out Wallace..certianly his act was more threatening than the fans..so who's the coward again? All Artest had to do was grab the security guard standing right next to him and ask for the fan to be dealt with. The fan likely was a season ticket holder given where he was sitting and he it would have been right for him to be banned from further games and be given a fine for disorderly conduct. 4. The fans didn't start the riot. Artest and then Jackson as away players in their biggest rivals arena ran into the stands to assult and beat up a fellow Piston fan. This is called asslut not self-defense and thats when things got crazy. Other fans jumped in mad as hell that other fans were beaing attacked by rival teams players. Does this make there action right? Hell no! But don't say they caused it because none of it would have ever happened if Artest followed NBA policy and not attacked a fan. 5. All fans that iniciated a conflict through phisical violance should be dealt with legally. Fans that threw objects should also be punished to a lesser degree..a little soda pop and popcorn being thrown at you is minor compared to being punched in the face by a person twice your size. 6. Artest is a discrace to the sport he always has been, but he crossed the line. He really caused this scene by going into an rival teams arena stands and starting a fist fight. If he stays on the court everything ends peacfully. I think he should be suspended of 15 games and be heavliy fined, Jackson should get 15 games because he was the worst of the bunch, he wasn't even invoved and he came into the stands throwing haymakers at everone. Jermain o'Neil gets fine and maybe a 1-2 game suspention. Fans have no right on the court to attack players just as the players have no right to go into the stands to attack fans...that fan on the court got what he deserved but the NBA still must do something. I was amazed how pro-player the ESPN crew was. Yeah the fans got out of control at the end but it was Artest who caused it all.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Did I watch the same incident as everyone else? It seems everyone is saying Detroit fans are the reason for the near riot, and Artest was justifed in assulting a fan. Bottom line is Artest incited this incident. NBA players are given instuction on the behavoir that the league expects of them and they are specificly instucted as to how to hadle confrontations with fans. 1. Wallace overreaction was not justified. I saw the replay the foul was late but Big Ben went to far with his reaction. He phyiscally put his hands on Artest's face in a threating manner and deserves a fine and suspention for his conduct. 2. Despite what Steven A Smith and John Saunders seem to think Artest was not just innocently minding his own business. Wallace was pissed and while Artest rightly avoid further conflict he laid down on the scores table put his arms behind his head.put on a commontator's headphones..not because he was calm and wanted to relax but because he was trying to show Wallace he wasn't sweating him and he was trying to show him up. 3. Having a plastic cup of beer thrown at you doesn't mean you can "defend yourself" by phyically assulting another person. Those are completely different. Why didn't Artest try to knock out Wallace..certianly his act was more threatening than the fans..so who's the coward again? All Artest had to do was grab the security guard standing right next to him and ask for the fan to be dealt with. The fan likely was a season ticket holder given where he was sitting and he it would have been right for him to be banned from further games and be given a fine for disorderly conduct. 4. The fans didn't start the riot. Artest and then Jackson as away players in their biggest rivals arena ran into the stands to assult and beat up a fellow Piston fan. This is called asslut not self-defense and thats when things got crazy. Other fans jumped in mad as hell that other fans were beaing attacked by rival teams players. Does this make there action right? Hell no! But don't say they caused it because none of it would have ever happened if Artest followed NBA policy and not attacked a fan. 5. All fans that iniciated a conflict through phisical violance should be dealt with legally. Fans that threw objects should also be punished to a lesser degree..a little soda pop and popcorn being thrown at you is minor compared to being punched in the face by a person twice your size. 6. Artest is a discrace to the sport he always has been, but he crossed the line. He really caused this scene by going into an rival teams arena stands and starting a fist fight. If he stays on the court everything ends peacfully. I think he should be suspended of 15 games and be heavliy fined, Jackson should get 15 games because he was the worst of the bunch, he wasn't even invoved and he came into the stands throwing haymakers at everone. Jermain o'Neil gets fine and maybe a 1-2 game suspention. Fans have no right on the court to attack players just as the players have no right to go into the stands to attack fans...that fan on the court got what he deserved but the NBA still must do something. I was amazed how pro-player the ESPN crew was. Yeah the fans got out of control at the end but it was Artest who caused it all.
Re: WHat did you think about the Detroit/Indiana fight??? ESPN's Mark Stein: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=1927536 League will be stronger ... Fans can't wait til Christmas.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Artest and Jackson touched off the whole incident but it was the fans who kept it going. Two guys in particular, the one who had the blue Pistons shirt with Wallace on the back started punching Artest from behind after Artest had stopped, I think after he first realized what he had done. Then, some big black guy started punching another Pacers player (Brown?) from behind. Those two things forced the Pacers players to defend themselves at that moment, and it kept the whole thing going after that. But yeah, Artest and Jackson should have never crossed the line and gone into the stands. Once you go into the stands, it's open season. It's just like a teacher trying to control a class. You can tell a rowdy class whatever you want but you never lay a finger on them because then it's over. Then anything goes.