Re: 2004-05 NBA thread This whole incident was stupid... plain and simple. I think someone else said this already, but when Rasheed Wallace comes out the best something is seriously wrong. On an unrelated note, I know the guys at NBA Fastbreak and ESPN News are excited there is actually something to fill 24 hours worth of coverage, but lets drop all this hyperbolic crap about "the worst thing people have ever seen"... that's overblown stuff no matter how you look at it. This happens a lot. The police chief of Auburn Hills does seem to be enjoying his 24 hours of fame though. The Pacers players were wrong to go into the stands... however, no matter how wrong that is, nothing would have happened if the trash sitting in the those seats didnt act the way they did. Furthermore, look at the tape of the Pacers players as they are heading back to the dressing room. They must have had thousands of dollars in concessions thrown on them... wow, those people must feel really cool. God I'm ashamed to be an NBA fan knowing I have to sit next to such trash at games. At the end of the day, to avoid any repeat of this incident, the NBA has to come down hard on the players involved - especially Jackson and Artest. However, how much discipline can they really dish out? You could ring up almost the whole Pacers team, as well as Wallace for starting the whole thing. Since the NBA needs these teams to be strong enough to give Miami competition in the East, my money is that we'll see severe setences, but nothing like a year some people have mentioned (which I dont think they deserve anyways) As for the fans, Detroit should suffer like European football teams do... have to play several games in an empty arena - starting of course with Indiana's next trip to Detroit in March. These things about putting up barriers wont fly and are impractical anyways. Send a message too by arresting those dickheads that came onto the court... what's the point? Also, Detroit should be banned from selling alcohol for several months. It will be really interesting to see how this all plays out. My money is that the NBA and the media will talk about this month for months and months and months. I'm sure we'll even get multiple interviews with MJ, and even a Vernon Maxwell appearance if we're lucky.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread i'll take your word for it sure you dont condone throwing bags of urine, but just because some players dont do anything about it makes it right? i know you didnt say that, but by your logic it seems like it. your logic: despite the fact that throwing things at players is wrong, it is wrong for a player to defend himself against said acts. that is fvcking outrageous! i could care less if these players are making millions and if these fans are in essense paying their salaries, the fans have no right to do such a thing and deserve whatever comes to them. also, you are only judging athlets. you, as a rational adult, would agree that in a normal situation, on a street for instance, such an act would lead to a fight? why not watch the video and see what happens? i just broke it down...read up. artest never threw a punch until already hit. hit nonetheless, by someone he didnt touch. what about the other sucker punches? Give me a break[/QUOTE] after you give me mine wow, i know i am being stubborn, but in my stubborn head you are an idiot. year long stuff? artest was assaulted!!! jackson was threw the first punch and he probably shouldnt, but it was an act of defending someone. the smartest thing he could have done would have been to grab artest and get him out of there, but thats not the only right option. the longest ban should be given to wallace. as i have said i like the guy a lot, but he blew it out of proportion, shoved artest, and threw a towel at him. jackson should get the 2nd longest....6 maybe? artest should get 2 at most.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread I fully agree with this statement Why not? If you have this kind of problem and you can't solve it put of the fences or plexi-glass walls. Or better yet put a mote around the court on the stands side of the fence.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread No, it is wrong to throw something, but throwing a plastic cup is not the same as cold clocking somone. You know how it is illegal for you to shoot an intruder as they are fleeing your house even if they robbed somthing??? Its not self defense in that case. The reaction doesn't fit. No I'm pretty sure I saw Artest go up into the stands and tackle/punch that guy in the dark shirt, he wasn't hit first I don't believe before he did that. Yeah Jackson was as bad as Artest, he should get ripped a new one too. But anyway he was "defending someone ???" more like he was joining the assault. Defending someone, in this case Artest would be putting your hands up to shield him from drinks. Going up into the stands with him (Artest being on a mission to go fight that dude) is not defedning, its joining in on the attack. 2 game suspension???
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread After watching the fight on TV and hating both cities equally, I think that the Pacers players are more to blame. What was Artest thinking laying down on the announcing booth? He was being a smartass and it was bound to start problems. So someone throws a cup? Big ********ing deal. It happens all the time and most players walk away. But Artest being the problem causer he is, charges into the crowd. Yep, that would only cause even more problems. If the Indiana players would just act like the role models their supposed to be and would have walked away this incident would have been minor. I am not saying Detroit fans weren't also to blame, but I think the Indiana players should have showed better judgement.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread No s###. I remember a time when Elden Campbell dunked over Sheed in the playoffs which understandably infuriated Shees. Elden kept the cooler head when Wallace wanted to throw blows, inducing a tech from Sheed, Yes, Elden Campbell. This event threatens the very viability of the league. It kinda reminds me of the NBA circa 1977, which is Stern's worst nightmare. I would not be surprised to see season, if not lifetime bans. Nor would I be disappointed. If you can't deal with a beer tossed from distance, you don't play professional sports. And you NEVER enter the stands.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread people like you make me feel somewhat for artest. the guy is a dick, but with you people he is damned if he does or doesnt. if he fights then artest is a thug, if he decides not to fight and lays down then he is a smarta$s act like role models? where in their job descriptions are they to be role models? this is where my problem lies. STOP HOLDING THESE PEOPLE TO HIGHER STANDARDS!!! god damnit. their job is to play basketball, nothing else. they should not have to accept such abuse.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Frankly I would be surpised to see it. Never in a million years would they give a lifetime ban to anyone but a few Detroit fans perhaps, in my opinion. I'm betting on a few 5-10 game suspensions and some $10,000 fines which is like 1 days pay.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread so the only legitimate excuse for fighting is getting head by a fist? you havent answered my question yet. in your humble opinion, for the average joe, if hit by a cup of beer in the face for no reason, would a fight probably insue? there was no gun involved and the 'robber' wasnt running away. he was being a prick with a little smirk on his face, never expecting to pay the price. watch the video, you can see him waving his arm cheering after the cup hits artest. yes artest goes into the stands and throws the guy down and holds him there; he does not throw a punch until the guy behind him hooks him in the head. personally i think jackson was worse than artest. he was more eager to fight the pistons and the fans, but i dont blame him for the latter. the FACT is, if your friend is in an unfair fight you help him. plain and simple. the 1st guy that jackson hit had just either punched artest or threw a cup/bottle in his face (i am unsure after watching the video the 2nd time. simply put, if you are going to get yourself into it, expect there to be consequences. idk if you guys are just judging these players different because they are pro athletes or that you have never seen a fight in real life? ahhhh. since you want to use the law as an example, self defense is not simply defending yourself by blocking/running, a counter attack is just as much of self defense as the others, and in law the human rage felt by the players after being assaulted (even if only by a beer cup) gives him an excuse.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Why do people keep bringing up bullshìt like this? Role models? Since when are basketball players supposed to be role models, unless you've got mad game and an actual chance of playing ball for a living? It's funny how anywhere else, punching someone who's throwing stuff at you and calling you names would be seen as somewhat justified, unless you're a basketball player.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Thing is, do we know for a fact it was that guy who threw the cup? Yeah, we saw him smiling, but just because Artest went after him doesn't mean he actually did it. Maybe Artest didn't know either. But all you see is a cup flying and not the person who threw it. Sucker punched? I see Stephen Jackson flying in like a wild man attacking another person. I see a guy in a blue warm up and baseball cap trying to restrain Artest, then get punched for doing so. You can't be serious. That in itself is a joke. It's not their job but people look up to them whether they want to or not. I think there's a certain standard they have to set for themselves. Yeah, someone threw a cup at him. Does that deserve the world's biggest beat down? I guess that's your opinion. I say "No".
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread As I saw it, Artest should be punished for going up into the stands and pushing that dorky looking guy in the black shirt. For one thing, how did Artest know that's who threw the bottle? I'm not saying it wasn't, just that he wasn't looking over there when he got hit so how did he know? But everything after that he is probably justified. He got attacked by people who had nothing to do with it. Holding him back is one thing, something they should do. But they attacked him pretty clearly even after he was done with that little guy. What Wallace did was maybe worse than anything Artest did. That wasn't even a hard foul or anything. When you go to the basket somebody always makes body contact. It was just an unprovoked attack on Artest. What's worse, attacking another player unprovoked or attacking a fan provoked? I guess we'll see when the NBA makes their ruling. The guy who really needs to be worried is Jackson. That guy just seemed to be looking for someone to hit. When he followed Artest into the stands, he didn't try to hold him back or break anything up, he went straight after somebody who didn't even look involved. From the video (which obviously doesn't tell the whole story) it looked like Jackson was completely unprovoked in attacking a fan, which led to most of the real serious stuff. I'll play Judge Judy and say Wallace gets 10 games, Artest gets 20 and Jackson's season, maybe even career is over.
WHat did you think about the Detroit/Indiana fight??? Who was at fault?? What would you have done if you were a player or a fan???
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Quite possibly, so what? That should be handled in the same way. The reaction doesn't fit the instigation I disagree, Artest goes to punch him, the guy kinda deflects the blow so they both just end up falling down together. But it was a punch. Yes but not like this. The guy got hit with a drink then him and his buddy go up into the stands to beat the guy up, thats not defense, thats NOT counterattacking while being attacked, thats instigating looking for the fight. Also the dumb-asses who came onto the court, yes they were dumb but still he came and looked at Artest our whoever, then he gets attacked by Artest. clearly iching to fight some more, then while the dudes, getting back up from also deflecting that blow and being tackled by some other unidentified guys, he gets cold clocked by O'Neal or whoever that was, THAT WAS NOT DEFENSE. That was outright assualt, no way around it sorry.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread i agree, we do not know for a fact that that was the correct guy. i ASSUME artest had a better idea/view, but yes, he could have been wrong. depending on if he was correct in getting the right guy or not, i think the punishment should differ, but i do not blame him. why not watch the video please. you are being very biased or blind. the guy in the baseball cap DOES hold back wallace for a little, then with his right hand throws 1 (or 2...i forget) hook to artest's right temple. artest then turns and goes after him as jones goes to hold back the guy in the cap, only to get sucker punched by some fat guy from behind. steven jackson did fly in and deck that dood, but the guy threw something at artist and may have punched him, although i dont think he did, either way, if he wants to involve himself (the fan), then so be it. you are on the street minding your business, a group of guys provoke you and your friends by throwing beers on you, you fight them. do you expect to be punished by the cops??? listen, i, as many others i'm sure, would love if every athlete was the model citizen, but they arent. it is not their job and it shouldnt be. i do not blame the athletes for not being a perfect person, i blame the parents for allowing their kids or the idiots (if they are old enough to think for themselves) for looking up to these guys as role in life and not soley in sports.
Re: WHat did you think about the Detroit/Indiana fight??? See the last 20 posts in the NBA season thread, that was an initial reaction by some. (que chivas gane la liga esta vez por fin)
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread So a basketball player shouldn't be a role model unless he's got mad game and an actual chance of playing ball for a living? I think every player on the Pacers probably has "mad game," since the DO play basketball for a living. In defense of the players, and all pro athletes, they've actually got about the hardest jobs in the world, besides maybe their coaches. The amount of physical energy they put into their jobs is staggering compared to other jobs. They are analyzed and critiqued unbelievably scrutinously. Only the President gets so over-analyzed. Their bosses invite thousands of people to come and tell them how much they suck at their job, throw stuff and insult their families and friends. They can lose their job because of the simplest of mistakes. I think if they were doing something other than playing a game and making millions for it, their job would be unbearably stressful. Emotions are also a big part of sports, the part that makes them entertaining. When all is said and done, things like this are actually good for the game since they make it more emotional, and therefore more entertaining. But if the boundaries are set, and they are (every player knows he can't go into the stands) then breaking them, no matter what the provocation, is unnacceptable. Artest should have just finished out the game, given a big middle finger to Wallace and to the fans and gone home with a win.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread well i can't impose my beliefs on you, but i think it is a very fair statement that for many, getting a beer+cup thrown on them is enough to constitute a fight. I disagree, Artest goes to punch him, the guy kinda deflects the blow so they both just end up falling down together. But it was a punch.[/QUOTE] watch the video please. the link was already posted, but ill be glad to give it to you. i cannot say artest did not have the intent to initially punch him (none of us can), but by the time he got to the guy he threw him down. artest is standing over the guy for a couple of seconds, if he wanted to punch him he had the freedom and time. Yes but not like this. The guy got hit with a drink then him and his buddy go up into the stands to beat the guy up, thats not defense, thats NOT counterattacking while being attacked, thats instigating looking for the fight.[/QUOTE] bro, watch the fvcking video! steven jackson doesnt punch the guy that artest went after. it was not a 2v1 as you make it out to be. Also the dumb-asses who came onto the court, yes they were dumb but still he came and looked at Artest our whoever, then he gets attacked by Artest. clearly iching to fight some more, then while the dudes, getting back up from also deflecting that blow and being tackled by some other unidentified guys, he gets cold clocked by O'Neal or whoever that was, THAT WAS NOT DEFENSE. That was outright assualt, no way around it sorry.[/QUOTE] ever see the picture 'what do running in the special olympics and arguing online have in common'? i feel like that now, i am arguing for no purpose... the guy had no right to come onto the court and in my opinion he did look like he want to do something. he did look scared and maybe he would have ended up doing nothing, but that is his problem for putting himself in that position. if i were in artest's, or any1 affiliated with the pacers at that time, i would have felt threatened. as for o'neal...ya it probably wasnt defense, but you are thinking way too rationaly for this scenario. it was a fight, there was mayhem all around, fans were rushing their safe area (the court). imo the guy is lucky o'neal didnt go after him while laying on the ground after being knocked down. THAT imo shows that o'neal wasnt looking just to fight.
Re: WHat did you think about the Detroit/Indiana fight??? While Artest may have gone a bit nuts after being hit in the face and trying to show he was calmed and was not going to escalate the situation, in all seriousness if all that had happened to you, 2-3 minutes prior, and you see the person that hits you with a full beer cup/bottle in the throat /face, do you casually tell the police this, or go after them (not throwing a punch but holding them down)? Imagine you are seeing your teamates being sucker puched by fans from behind, and fans openly taking punches at them from the front, with cups, chairs being thrown at you, and you see fans on the court, one of which lunges at a teamate, what do you do, defend your teamates, since security is doing a bad job, or walk away and try and talk to get more help? I would charge any unlawful acts I see on the videotape, but also charge Ben Wallace and/or the fan that threw the beer with inciting a riot and accessory to all the crimes that were committed, since they were in the presence and made it all happen. I will not even get into the punishment phase but a tease is Detroit hosts none of its home games for this year, or Detroit forfeits 10 home games this year, or Detroit loses 18 Home games to Road Games and forfeits all the profits it would have made.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread it didn't come out clearly, but i think he was trying to say unless you (you in general) have mad game and a chance to play in the nba, then dont say that they should be role models. i agree with most of this.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread No, I'm saying YOU shouldn't idolize players unless YOU have a reasonable chance of following in their footsteps. If you're looking to go to college, get a job, get married and settle into some suburban lifestyle like most NBA fans, your role models should probably not be wealthy college dropouts. I mean, I haven't got any kids, but I work as a teacher and I try my best to ween kids off role models that aren't very realistic. As far as realistic rolemodels go, ballplayers are right up there with superheroes and Pokémon characters.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Well lets see if the NBA says anything tommorrow or in the next days. I just hope the players don't get any less punishment than any fans involved in physical violence. By the way I can't say enough... That was utterly disgraceful what O'Neal did. That guy in the white shirt was just kinda laying there slowly getting up after being tackled and also punched by the black dude in the suit, and O'Neal comes into to try and take his head off, like he was a threat at that point... Thats downright cowardly in some peoples book. Good night
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread i completely agree and disagree (leaning more to agreeing). i think it is 100% acceptable to look at athletes as superheroes and pokemon characters, as long as they are judged soley on their athletic performances and not other things. the point that you are making tho, that i agree with completely is that ppl are unfairly holding these people to higher standards.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread I agree. Just misunderstood what you wrote. The only problem is that all kids think they do have a reasonable chance of following in those footsteps. Whether or not they should idolize them is sort of irrelevant because they do, and there's not much stopping them.
Re: 2004-05 NBA thread Let me put it this way, I admire and perhaps try to emulate celebrities of any kind only insofar as it relates to what they're famous for. I play basketball, I play soccer, I play piano and guitar. I try to model my game after certain players and I try to model my chops after certain axemen. That, however, is where my interest in them stops. I don't care what they do in free time, what their favourite restaurant is or who they wake up next to in the morning. I don't care if they've got kids in every NBA city(Shawn Kemp), have mental issues(Artest), are so full of themselves they used the third person in talking about themselves(K. Malone), unleash bad movies and bad rap albums on us on a regular basis(Shaq), or for that matter, go around raping high school girls in their free time(Kobe). I may model my jumpshot after Reggie Miller's, but I ain't going to model my life after his.