FourFourTwo 101 best footballers of the last 25 years

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by schwuppe, May 16, 2019.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I am now not at a location to use a keyboard but (in brief) one consideration is here he played big club finals (1993, 2004) and national team finals a decade apart (1998, 2006). Combine that with his spectacular skillset with his feet and the body and that he was at the peak of his fame (roughly 1998-2001) about as good as Kahn (fractionally worse perhaps) and I would have him above his contemporary. That he has the clean sheet record at world cup level (just as vds has in euros..) can also not be entirely down to luck, not when you also reach finals without a super stellar defense and with different set ups. Thus even with an unfortunate spell for Man United in between (some errors, not great with high balls because of his frame, tendency to punch the ball away instead of catching), and his national team spot under pressure in 2006, I would have him at place three to five. He is a candidate to be the best short-sized goalkeeper in history I think.
     
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  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @PDG1978

    Now the others of the series get uploaded too:



    And it seems BT sport had a bit of a Feyenoord theme the past couple of weeks ;)



     
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks for letting me know - will take a look over the next week sometime probably. I wonder if they said Beckham and Bale's attributes combined would be quite unstoppable for a winger (or attacking mid even maybe) at any point in that first one!

    I guess you enjoyed the Feyenoord aspects indeed, and might have liked both the primes of those players scoring wise and perhaps in general play to an extent too to still be spent at the club!
     
  4. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    #304 babaorum, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
    Thanks.
    Barthez had a pretty insane record with France, better than all his contemporaries. He was obviously protected most of the time by a super defense, but still...

    % of defeats :
    [​IMG]
    goals conceded per game :

    [​IMG]
    His 51 clean-sheets in 87 games must also be a record.

    This said, until 1997 Bernard Lama had the edge over him and even during the WC the competition between both keepers was harsh. Barthez ultimately got the edge, but comparing their respective peak times I don't think he was vastly superior to Lama, who was simply unfortunate to reach his best a bit too early (1993-96). Lama was perhaps not as good in 1 vs 1 situations, didn't have Barthez's skillstets with his feet, but he was a commanding figure on his line and was confortably better at catching high balls.
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #305 PuckVanHeel, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
    Yes, and although I don't have the exact data at hand right now, he was also busier than Casillas and Buffon. Buffon because Italy is by nature defensive (France in 1998 ofc also relatively defensive still) and Casillas because all the team possession limited the number of shots by the opponent.

    Lama I think was someone more of the Kahn and Schmeichel mold. Big frame, not so great with the feet. Not very elegant (edit: technically sound) with his dives.

    I remember Barthez making a few good saves in the 1993 CL final. So even if that trophy is tainted, those saves still stand. He had also his moments and months in his last Marseille spell I think, where he reached another European final.
     
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  6. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    I think that as luck would have it, Barthez got suspended two months in the beginning of the year '96 while it was like written that Lama
    would have a great tournament in England. Also Barthez arrived injured at Monaco in the beginning of the season whilst he just came back in Division 1.

    Even without that, Lama would have remained the first choice for he had more international experience and a recent accumulation of great European football performances with PSG ponctuated with the Cup Winners' Cup win.
    In the meantime, Barthez knew the VA-OM affair and yeah, had that one season in Division 2.

    Imo, the integration of Barthez in national team as the #1 GK was thus postponed and having him only on the bench in '96, in spite of everything, was to prepare him for '98. It was programmed.
    Lama being still a great option as #2, I think that it was told to him that there was a real concurrence for he stays focus and ready to play if needed, since Barthez' form was undpredictable - since already injured once, it could have happened again, most of all with his playing style.
    Besides, Charbonnier was a solid #3 or #2 bis at this time, in '98 too. Lama was clearly on the downhill right after that Euro '96. In '97-98, his career was even like stopped.

    For me it was clear that Barthez had that little extra over Lama even though completely comparable keepers indeed.
    I think we said that we had two equally great keepers at the time ('93, '94-96) because, as already explained finally so sorry for the repetition, there was still an interrogation point as to know if Barthez would make it due to the context, his recent injury and a too small number of games in NT to judge on as to know if he could actually become the "boss" in the goals, whilst Lama was multiplicating the incredible saves at the same moment and was at his top also as to when it comes to catch the ball in the air on crosses. As we said, he was the master of his penalty-area. He made errors here and there too, it was always on the edge. So was Barthez, but he gave more confidence than Lama in my perception, with Lama the proportion of risks was higher. Also they were equally good to throw the ball with the hand (Lama really was great at this but so was Barthez) and Barthez was definitively better with the feet, especially with his left foot.
    The rest is History, Barthez never made mistakes in NT and inspired an almost mystic confidence to his teammates and fans.

    Don't get me wrong, I never thought that there was a so huge difference between the two, but there are those little differences that makes a big difference in the end when it comes to play at the highest level, especially at this position of GK where you can't do a single error during a tournament (Kahn knows it well, he made only one mistake in 2002 and it was in the Final, without what perhaps they still would have a chance, even without Ballack... Lloris 2018, the deal was done... Schumacher '86, Arconada '84).
    In my view, Lama was a "false-cool" and Barthez really a "crazy-cool".
    Lama's window in the NT corresponds with Barthez being not ready still and when he, Lama, was probably at his best, with that PSG team, but we mustn't forget that in spite of all his talent, Lama was not selected before '93. The serious Martini was the deal. Even a couple of other gk's were chosen over him in a couple of other occassion between Martini and him. Barthez had the divine spark since the beginnings, starting by imposing himself at a very young age in no less than this OM team that everybody know well. Was decisive in the CL final '93 when not 22 years old yet as we know.
    Things were good as it happened. Perhaps that Barthez would not have had this freshness if he had played in NT since longer. No need to go back on the non-qualification of '93 too (not that I think that Barthez should have played in NT that early, especially in this context, but taken in a general view as for the team).

    Well, to say the truth, I can't imagine a Lama, even at his peak, having the tournament Barthez has had in '98. That was too perfect.

    Also, I think that the medias participated actively in saying that they were equals around '96 in order to not destabilize the actual French number 1 GK of the moment who was also the keeper of the number 1 club of the moment, the club of the capital, owned by Canal+. Whilst Barthez was still somehow linked to an affair that everybody wanted to forget at one point, especially the world of football itself wich of course includes the medias. This, especially a couple of years from a World Cup to be held in France. But if we read between the lines, I believe that at times (that's how I read it anyway), the journalists and different commentators shown they had a slight preference though and that Lama was somehow just like an intermediate solution, even though he was globally really great at this same moment. Luckily. Or that's fate.

    About their concurrence during the World Cup '98, I think that it was most of all at the beginning of the tournament when Lama wanted to show that he was still at the level, wich honours the competitor and great sportsman that he surely was, but after a little while he understood what had to be his role in this group of 22-men of wich he was one of the elders and, with inteligence and wisdom, certainly has adapted his behaviour progressively as the team was progressing through the tournament being more of a advisor and motivator than a concurrent to the others.
    I think that's what he explained post-World Cup anyway. As a veteran of '93, he knew what the conflicts could do inside a group, with these rivalries and different clans in NT, especially between the OM and PSG players, wich is still today denied by the players of OM like Deschamps but wich is not just "a myth" for everybody.

    Petit (of Monaco, who was very young at the time) seconds that too. Well, Petit had the habit to complain about many things and he was often descredited... and stopped complaining now, and denouncing now... perhaps because his place is menaced in the world of the medias if he continues like that (talked too much about OM, Zidane... without enough solid arguments too maybe).
    Just a little addition for the people who are not necessarily aware of all these fascinating, intriguing, little stories. Wich are about the whole story in fact.
     
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  7. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    just see PVH's post now with some identical ideas.
    + sorry for the "essay":eek::ROFLMAO:
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here some things for the Fulham period:

    https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news-archive-1/staropta-player-of-the-month-7/

    https://www.svenskafans.com/england/fulham/65501

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/van-der-sar-sept-opta-player-of-the-month.141167/

    http://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2003/december/02/player-of-the-month

    That said, at the time also the likes of Westerveld (Liverpool) and Waterreus of PSV (big frame, but good with the feet) received a few caps... Arguably with a negative effect on the 2002WCQ campaign... Tinkering with your starting goalkeeper is always risky and many managers like to keep the incumbent (see Neuer now, Casillas selected for too long). The transitioning to his successor Stekelenburg (who was excellent in 2010) went very smooth though.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Nice work :thumbsup:
     
  10. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Not always elegant, perhaps, but most of the time very "feline" though ;) the cliché that it can be but it's true and it's not a bad thing in itself I assume.
    Not "academical style", as they say.
     
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  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Of course it gets the job done but if the athleticism drops off a tiny bit there is a problem. Someone like Buffon ages well because he is by all definitions and 'schools of thought' a technically sound keeper.
     
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  12. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
  13. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Same question as before but concerning Laurent Blanc this time (as he was not included either in the list) : where would you rank him ?

    @wm442433 @PuckVanHeel
     
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  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #314 PuckVanHeel, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
    Will get back to this over a week. It is relatively difficult to assess his club career (the influence or lack of not immediately visible) and I also think some of his best French NT years were before they became great (Jacquet initially ignored him though), but after your earlier comment from some weeks ago I thought about it back then and think he fits in at #4 to #7. Keep in mind he was already 29 at the start of the period (born november 1965)... His skills with the ball were superb, athletically not fantastic, at club level the tempo and pace of the match were limiting factors - as said I will return to this the next week or so. If I'm allowed to assess his whole career he can go up to #3, with extra weight to national team career maybe #2.

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x642rf0



    edit: he was also a goal threat of course (yes I know many of them came as a midfielder), strong offensive header of the ball, for a defender quite dangerous with his passing.
     
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  15. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    #315 wm442433, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
    It is really not that easy here because first of all, I guess I'm completely biased here.
    Also his career had started way before that (French player of the year '89 or it is 90? as a midfielder... transferred to the Serie A as a libero... recognized as one of the best players at Euro '92, as definitively a libero).

    When thinking about that group that would consist of him, Koeman and Hierro, i think that it's tight but I can't help but rank Blanc first. I think that he's not far from Sammer too, but Sammer has this thing that he could defend well at midfield, had a bigger engine.
    I'd have him, so that's Blanc, over Godin anyway (who appears at the rank #90).
    Koeman is 2 years older than Blanc and doesn't feature in the ranking... Hierro is there at rank #95... I'd have him over Godin too...
    Can't dissociate Koeman, Blanc and Hierro anyway so they would be all in this zone, or not ranked at all to simplify things and perhaps integrate other in my view seriously noticeable offensive talents. Sammer is at #46 and it's a too big gap with them imo though inevitable at one point when doing these rankings. His position, here, right in the middle of the list, probably that it can be defended. He was burnt in '97 tho.

    Talking margins between the players in this ranking in particular still, leaving Blanc aside for a moment and focusing on the #12 in this list, I don't remember Cannavaro being that great all along his career so he would have been an absolute dominator. Then, it's true that he was already pretty solid in the mid-90s, even more in the late 90s... won the whole thing in '06... and ended a career that started in '93 only in 2010. Not a player who left his mark in the CL from memories... wich is also the case of Baggio amongst the players that ranks before him. In the top-15, two Italians/ three were not "CL players", the other being no less than Maldini.
    Then, extending this to the top-20, there are Rooney (to a certain extent), Batistuta and Cantona.
    Cannavaro is one of the best defenders of his era for sure... and like the archetypal "stopper"... Italian etc. so... yeah... but I find doubtful to rank such a player that high though. When other defenders used to be as strong as him or near that, or have been way better ball-players. Hey, like Blanc! But also like Blanc's colleagues from The Nederlands and España. And Nesta too. Who's 51st as already pointed out. I won't have Nesta ahead of Blanc by a large margin too, so if Blanc doesn't make my 100, he would be more likely near the end of the list as well.
    I won't have Ramos (#24), Piqué (#34, more comparable to Blanc)... Puyol (#41) that high neither and certainly not ahead of a good number of midfield and attack's talents too, for sure. Ferdinand is #53, that's another player who is more comparable to him like Piqué. That's CL winners... their club careers totally fit in the last quarter of century... they have not known the pre-Bosman ruling era... the Spaniards won the international titles as well... Blanc praised Ferdinand... no, it's not easy to rank all these good defenders, with different strenghts and who all wrote their story in different contexts and eras finally.

    Hierro is the youngest of the 3-men pack I'd always consider at the same time (Hierro, '68, Blanc '65, Koeman '63) and he has won titles at the turning point from one century to the other, played the World Cup 2002... Koeman, well, was past-it in '94... and Blanc is a bit between all of that, sustaining the challenge of the French team from '96 to 2000, past his 30... so...
    ...so, yes difficult question, thanks a lot!
     
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  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #316 PuckVanHeel, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
    I don't think this is really true, or at least he didn't go off the cliff. In 1994-95 he had a nice assist in the quarters against PSG (though Weah was rampant) and was also great in the games against Man United. After that also class as veteran for Feyenoord and led them to the semis in Europe... Still scoring and assisting well... He aged fine. He retired at the age of 34.5 years old - what to make of Blanc past that age? (past the summer of 2000). The longevity advantage is not *that* enormous.

    Funny aspect: the world cup doppelgangers tool shows Sergio Ramos being most similar to F. de Boer (for a while the record holder in European games btw) and Koeman in what he does on the pitch.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/world-cup-comparisons/

    edit: will return to this in a week time but thought (after babaorum his comment/question from some weeks ago) Blanc his club career is tricky. Notwithstanding all the ESM selections (more on that later), he never really succeeded at a top team (Barcelona, Inter, Manchester - no ESM any more for them), and the win percentages in Serie A, Ligue 1, Premier League and Champions League are better without him than with him in the team (more on that too). Despite not playing for the absolute top... Tricky, but nevertheless in that four to seven range.

    Good post on him :thumbsup:
     
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  17. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    I appreciate the reactivity;)
    Well, Blanc vs Koeman battle engaged!
    Blanc was 34-35 when he won the Euro 2000 and Koeman was 31 when he appeared in his last international tournament. Koeman was 34 when he stopped his career, in '97.
    Koeman was no good at the World Cup '94, it is well known:D
    Then he was certainly a good leader for Feyenoord that reached the Cup Winners Cup semi-finals by eliminating... wait, Liepaja first round ok, Everton, M'gladbach, ok... and was eliminated by Rapid Wien (ah yes, it is this year). éhéh!
    "Class as veteran", I agree, I remember a little bit from the (very) few I saw or read. But Blanc at the same age was playing and winning an Euro and was hired by Alex Ferguson's Manchester United, the most powerful club in Europe with Real Madrid.
    And winning the Premier League before retiring doesn't hurt!!!! Ahaha!!
    Blaannncc wiiiinnsssss!!!
    Now... it's true that Koeman has the three-kicks... like in '92...
    In "pure defensive abilities", they're about equal, though I'd give the edge to...yeah, Laurent Blanc.
    No, but in all seriousness, as already said, in my mind Koeman, Blanc and Hierro... it's hard to tell who was the best, if there's one best. But the question about what they were doing at the same age you see... it has excited me a bit!

    You're right about Ramos, he's really complete and one of the best "pure defender" even though it went with an important dose of dirty play lately... well it's part of the game. Also, he won't be "authorized" to do that eternally.
    Yes, the comparision is interesting with Koeman (when in possession of the ball, if I understand correctly?). Also, S. Ramos like de Boer have played on the sides. If it's about their whole career in the competition, they must have played at both the SB and the CB positions?
     
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  18. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Just see the edit of your post, PvH ^
    See you later, guys.
     
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  19. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Yeah I think his club carreer is tricky to assess. He did quite well at first with Montpellier but then made some poor choices by joining Napoli (where he played well but the defensive Serie A didn't suit his offensive style), then Nïmes and Saint-Etienne. He played well but clearly those were frustrating seasons for him.
    Then he had one great season with Auxerre (95-96) during which I think it's fair to say he took the team on his shoulders to win the League and the Cup.
    His brief Barcelona spell was not realy successful (not completely his fault though : Cruyff left when he signed and he suffered some injuries).
    The two followings seasons with OM iwere among his best I think, similar to his 95-96 season with Auxerre. OM had the best defense in the league those two seasons and Blanc obviously played a major part in it.

    I think he did quite well with Inter actually, and even his time with MU was good enough for a 36 years old grand-daddy... but yeah, all in all his club carreer was rather chaotic and his best seasons took place in 2nd range teams : Montpellier, Auxerre... or Marseille (well, Marseille was not exactly a 2nd range team but not a top team either on the European stage, despite reaching the UEFA Cup final in 99).

    His NT carreer is obviously a completely different story. It can be divided into two parts (1989-94 and 1994-2000) but it's relatively linear, Blanc having an important role from his beginnings, obviously growing up when Jacquet took the charge.
    As far as I know he's the only player (perhaps also Maldini ?) to be named in 3 Euro all-star teams (92, 96, 00).
    I also remember noticing some years ago from OPTA datas that Blanc had the highest % of overall duels won and more specifically the highest % of aerial duels won of the history of the WC (from 1966 to 2010... or was it 2014 ? I can't remember).
     
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  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #320 PuckVanHeel, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
    He struggled with the heat (like all the older players) but he had some exquisite passes in the tournament. Against Belgium a number of them.

    Statistically he wasn't poor - fill in his name in that doppelgangers tool.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/world-cup-comparisons/

    Problem is: Blanc has only two continental semi finals as a starter in his career (plus 1997 for Barcelona).

    In 1999 he made the match winner in the semis, in the final for the 1-0 a big error (nonchalant back pass, goal for Parma). In 2002 for Manchester United he was okay but conceded five goals in four games against Depor and Leverkusen.

    His national team career is a lot better (weaker years in the 90s are 1993, 1999) thus no surprise he ranked fourth all-time in the France Football poll from the early/mid 2000s (behind the Big Three). He has some great years/tournaments when the national team itself was not. His long passes could be wayward at times, but when he was 'on' there were few if any technical weaknesses.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #321 PuckVanHeel, Aug 28, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
    Why was he let go by Marseille in 1999? As noted on his wiki. Mistake surely?

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurent_Blanc
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    His best phase with Manchester United (age 35-36) was the 2nd half of his first season I thought. Even then, Ferguson decided to break the bank for Rio Ferdinand to solve the defensive issues. See also the 'soccerbox' episode with Neville.

    His best phase with Inter was also the 2nd half of the first season. He came in as a 'free transfer' and Inter as a whole was very poor in the first half of 1999-00; the signing of Seedorf in the winter transformed them (as the zonal marking book mentions/explains).

    Given his age he did fine.

    He does have a few ESM selections for non-elite club teams, from before the French NT reached their zenith. The statistical influence he had on those sides (serie a, ligue 1, la Liga, premier league, champions league) is imho not convincing. Usually players have more chance reaching ESM if they play for a top team.

    https://www.bdfutbol.com/en/p/j1734.html

    For the France national side the impact is there and his weaknesses were covered by all those supreme athletes around him (Deschamps, Desailly and the rest). That was his luck but he made great use of it, pushed them to literally invincible heights.

    All in all, I would have him 4th to 7th as said (below Nesta, Godin, Pique) and for full career probably #3.





    Now after a few posts I've basically explained all my thoughts :p Maybe Godin so high looks strange for some.
     
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  23. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Coach Courbis wanted to get rid of him and get Walter Samuel instead. But he didn't get him and tried to buy Milito, but failed again. Finally he got Berrizo...
    Courbis made a colossal mistake getting rid of Blanc... Himself was fired a few months later.
     
  24. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I think he had a clear influence with Auxerre. I mean the club won their one and only league title with him playing (as well as the French cup the same year). Auxerre had a nice team that year with Cocard and Martins but still : it can't be a coincidence : Laurent Blanc was seen as the main figure leading to the title.
    His time in Marseille looks somewhat frustrating but still : his two years coincide with a kind of resurgence of the club after some chaotic seasons and when he left the club was again back to its usual issues... I' m not saying he's the only reason behind of all of it of course... but he helped stabilizing the team, as shown by the fact Marseille's defense was the best in France during his time there.

    All in all that doesn't change the whole picture this said : his club carreer remains somewhat subpar.

    I agree with your thoughts about his national team carreer.
     

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