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Discussion in 'Customer Service' started by Oarboar, Mar 9, 2011.
How many Terms of Service agreements are there and who do they apply to?
Good Question. I think there are at least two. One for me, one for everyone else. I realize it's a short leash that I'm kept on, but I expect that when I pick up infraction points for provoking people, they pick up the same level of punishment for searching me out in a thread/forum they've never posted in.
First of all, we all know that I have no problem waiting out an infraction for a violation of the TOS.
I do have a problem when my response that received the infraction for using what I am told is the equivalent term for Ni99er, for Mexican, was a response to an equally offensive term to my ethnicity and the provocateur does not receive equal punishment.
I await Ubermods/Management/Ownership Comment and/or additional infraction points, suspensions or permanent ban.
Second, isn't it just kinda wrong that a poster that has a yellow card can't start a thread to ask a question in Customer Service?
Oh and just so you mods can feel free to talk amongst yourselves, I have voluntarily closed off my window into your Super Secret Star Chamber.
I'm definitely subscribing to this thread!
If you're still a mod, you'll be able to read it once it goes into the bin.
This wasn't even a thread-jack. It was an ambush.
I'll take responsibility for starting it, with my "injun" crack:
But I know Mike well enough that I know he'd take it as a joke...which is EXACTLY the way he took it!
(and the "invent" part was also an insult, but not at Indians...if you've been paying attention, you'll get it)
I've been a regular on the 606 thread for several years; at least as long as Mike has.
I've never heard of "It's called FOOTBALL" before today.
He ambushed, and provoked the fight.
Then whined about it.
What a bunch of crap.
Having viewed the posts for which Sr. Calor received his most recent infractions, I just have to say the following:
What a bunch of crap.
In the first, from a now-binned group of posts from the Shalrie Joseph thread in the MLS N&A forum, Mike was assessed an infraction for dodging the autocensor. Really? Is that worthy of an infraction now, because that's going to make a hell of a lot more work for us mods.
In the second, all I'll say is that Mike got his money's worth. But I can't help noticing that no infraction was assessed for the use of the word "**********." Or does BigSoccer condone the use of offensive language toward American Indians?
If Mr W / Mike Segroves was given an infraction for retaliating, why wasn't the other poster (It's called FOOTBALL) not equally punished for his actions?
I've been on the 606 threads for 7 years and it's the first time the other guy has posted on it AND with a direct attack on Mr W / Mike Segroves.
Smacks of uber-partisan / one-sided modding from where I stand.
Mr W / Mike Segroves is welcome by me to post in the 606 threads, anytime.
Rather than repeat what everyone else has said, I'll just say "I concur."
At least card the provocateur, for crying out loud. Or are Indians not large enough to be a Protected Group on Big Soccer?
This has been my only issue with the incident. Why am I infracted for a response that was violation of the TOS when the post directed at me was an equally offensive slur and violation of the TOS? Had he been infracted as well, I serve my time quietly.
Do I have to report it and wait however long for a mod to respond? And seriously, how many posts get reported in NSR/FFA? Particularly responses directed to provoking trolls?
Am I really to believe that if the same poster had directed a similar slur at one of the members of the Ask The House thread that this poster would even be allowed in the FFA forum again? Somehow, I don't think it would be tolerated
Why was Tim Mahoney (Oarboar) given a red card? Is being friends with Segroves a cardable offense now?
Is this really an accurate equivalency? Mr. Warmth has been warned, infracted, yellow carded, red carded dozens of times about this kind of slur - that there can be no doubt in his mind that this isn't cool here. I've also permanently red carded repeat offenders for the kinds of slurs you are posting so what is this double standard that allows Mr. Warmth to survive our repeat offender rule?
And I don't buy this - oh I've earned my card and I'll take it - if this were your 10th time using N word equivalent words, we wouldn't be having this discussion because you'd be long gone. Why is this any different? Those of you defending MS - slurs of this kind are understandable because he was provoked? You're intellectually enlightened enough to conclude he doesn't really mean it even though he keeps doing it? If we are going to play fast and loose with equivalences (is that word?), let's do the same with other similar racially charged language and be honest about the fact that repeated racial slurs like this don't make anyone cool. It's in fact, the ********ing opposite of cool.
The other guy was trolling and posted offensive language and should be infracted but MS is getting off easy with a yellow in my book - and this outrage about equal punishment seems misguided and a little intellectually dishonest to me.
If the Ownership/Senior Operations Moderators think BigSoccer has outgrown me, all they have to do is ask me to leave. I would hate to think that any Mods sent a little troll to provoke me into a ban worthy response, and I'm not accusing anyone of such, but it's just a little strange that a guy strolls into a FFA thread series that has been going on for 7 years and targets me.
Do I troll the Mexican forums? Nope? Do I say anti-Mexican stuff in US Forums? Nope. In fact, I defending Mexican-American US soldiers who chickenhawk USMN&A posters thought should be either physically abused, jailed, deported because they dared waive a Tri-color flag during a US/MX game on TV.
You're right, I am probably getting off easy, but I never asked for that. I asked why the troll/provocateur wasn't dealt with in the exact same manner I was. He received, as far as I can tell, no punishment. I guess I was supposed to "report it", though since the words aren't on "the list", it would have likely been ignored, especially if it came from me. I've been told that I should ask you to get that word added to the "Do Not Use" list. If that is true, please consider this my formal request for that and the following words:
Oh and these too:
ZOG (Zionist Oppression Government)
Only the silly Iranians tend to use it, but there is no reason they should get off Scot free because they're Iranians.
I don't want "special treatment", I want equal enforcement. The mod in question obviously saw the post that provoked my response and chose not to similarly infract that poster. That's the issue.
Sorry Tim. I didn't think someone would do that. Obviously they assume you're my sock. A simple IP check would clear that up.
Please make it so, captain.
And can we please get a reversal on Tim Mahoney's red card at the top of this thread, or at least an explanation for why he was redded? I've known Mahoney for ten years, and he's very near the top of my list of "people least likely to ever do anything to earn a red card."
And please extend my yellow card to at least March 31, with redcard as necessary. I don't want to be seen as any part of a special or protected group.
And my point is that it's a false equivalent.
I'm open to adding terms to the censor that are slurs that we have issues with - and while you could easily convince me that all these terms are offensive, I'm not sure everyone realizes this and it's just not a problem for this website as a general rule. I'm open to hearing the argument, but when we have a football team in this country named "Redskins" - as gross as I may think that is - well, I'm not sure I'm smart enough to figure out the right approach on how to deal with that. But on the other hand, how often are these terms really needed on this website?
Take this up with the politics mods - not smart enough for this one either.
Here's my problem - you seem to think that oppression of people you are associated with justifies your making all kinds of racial slurs on another people. How else do you explain it? Why is that okay? Who gives a crap about equal enforcement - just stop doing this. It's really not cool and I don't get why none of your FFA buddies tell you that's out of line no matter what the provocation. This focus on equal enforcement is missing that point altogether, but if that's so important to you - my point is that all isn't equal here.
I knew whose sock it was - if it's not a sock and a legit account, he can let me know as I would agree that TM is not remotely a problem. But, on the subject of equal treatment, sock accounts are almost always yellow cards. I mention this because y'all seem to want us to blindly apply equal treatment to all situations which would be ridiculous since TM may have just wanted to start a new name and didn't realize our policy. Context matters.
Not sure that does much to change the facts.
I in no way meant any offense with my post. The only other interaction I've ever had with Mr. Warmth was last year when I asked him a question about his people. He answered politely and provided links. This question was in the same vein. I had no beef with him.
It'd be hypocritical and idiotic of me to slur Native Americans when my people are descended from the same people they are, the crossers of the Bering Strait.
Is this thread a practical joke on me? If so, y'all got me!
I'll reiterate what I said in my PM to you. I wasn't being offensive in any way nor did I use offensive language. I asked him a question about white-Indian relations. I was in that thread because I saw the post scroll up on my screen. I didn't look for him or anything.
I believe Mr. Warmth knows I wasn't being offensive. He just likes to snap at people left and right here just for the heck of it. I just happened to be one of them this time, except this time he used racial slurs.
And a famous ski resort named ********** Valley.
It wasn't my intention to take part in this spectacle (I came for the popcorn), but I should say on the antisemitic slur front that, aside from a few blatant terms like ZOG and kike and hymie (none of which, curiously, are censored on BigSoccer), most antisemitic slurs are entirely contextual. Zionist is not an inherent antisemitic slur, but sometimes it is. The term Jew is not an inherent antisemitic slur, but sometimes it is. And, by the way, this is just like criticism of Israel, which is not inherently antisemitic, but sometimes it is.
It can take an experienced eye to detect antisemitism's sometimes subtle appearance, and most problematically from a moderating perspective it often takes some practice to define and explain the problem. You really have to take the bulk of these things on a case by case basis. It's not something that you can or should autocensor.
But in my experience at least the PC&E mods are pretty good about dealing with antisemitism on that board (at least the main board*) once it's pointed out to them. You do, however, sometimes need to point it out to them -- which is not really a criticism, just a reality.**
* That said, I did stop reading one certain sub-forum on PC&E because it has at times been a virtual antisemitic cesspool and I don't have the energy to deal with it, even merely by reporting it. So I don't know what's going on there these days because I avoid it.
** If there's a fault in the detection of antisemitism on that board, it likely lies with posters who fail to report and explain the problem. I do report things sometimes. But I overlook a lot too because I don't have the stomach for dealing with it. It's easier to close the thread (or unsubscribe from the board) than to report a post, particularly if you think you might have to explain the problem at length. Perhaps that's a mistake.
Since we're graced by the presence of a supermod in this thread, let me ask about Mr. Warmth's OTHER infraction, since the question of "what slurs should be added to the autocensor" came up...
Is dodging the autocensor worthy of an infraction?
Finally, let me add my voice to those that would like to vouch that Oarboar is not a sockpuppet. And I'd like for the busybody who redded him to present himself/herself for public ridicule.
So it has to be a commonly used and known derogatory term and have to have problem usage before someone does something about it? Jap is censored, but I haven't ever seen anyone attempt to use it? And I don't think anyone has since probably I dunno, the 70's.
I didn't ask anyone to defend me, just someone to start a thread because you can't start one in Customer Service with a YC. And no, his provocation didn't justify my response, but his provocation was no less offensive? It's like some friends are sitting at a table in a bar having a conversation when someone of ethnicity X strolls up and asks a person of ethnicity Y a question using a derogatory term and gets one in return. So the person with Ethnicity X runs off and finds a cop with the same ethnicity strolling by and gets them to issue a ticket to person of Ethnicity Y for using a term that hurt his feelings in response to his either willful or ignorant use of the word.
I just don't want to give the denizens of the Star Chamber who want to see me gone and permanently banned any ammo for being on a protected list.
Assuming you're being honest, what you meant is irrelevant.
Probably should have chosen your words better.
What's sort of idiotic is that you'd use the term "**********". If you didn't know it was a racially charged word, you're either stupid or woefully undereducated.
Referring to an Indian woman using the term "**********" is.
Funny that "fuck" is censored and bullshit isn't. Though you can't say either on TV.
I generally respond with said slurs when someone uses them towards or around me.
And some names will never change. I seriously don't expect "redskin" to be banned, and wasn't really serious in typing it, but if "ICF" doesn't want such terms used about him, he should really be sure, if English is his 2nd language, of the words he uses in English to talk to someone in the US. What I have a real issue with is that the Ubermod who rightfully tagged me didn't know that ********** was an offensive term. That I have a hard time believing and that he, when he got the notice about my post, should have looked at the context of my response.
I too overlook and have overlooked or in general, tried to explain to some people who genuinely do not know about why some words/terms are nor well received in Indian Country and have generally not reported some fairly vile PM's and rep comments because it's generally not worth the time and apparently, it would have been deemed not a problem enough to fool with anyway because those terms aren't used enough to offend enough people or the users and sometimes mods don't know, or really care enough that those words are offensive.
Apparently it is, and I really don't care. What I do sort of have a problem with is getting infractions for posts that are 30-60 days old in threads that have dropped off the front page of a forum. They may be violations of the TOS, but it really reeks of either petty moderating, petty stalking, or people with too much time on their hands following my posts looking for something to report 1-2 months down the line.
Should have been fixed already.
I kinda do, for two reasons:
1. I dodge the autocensor occasionally. In the past, it's been "fixed" by the mods in whatever forum I've been in, without so much as a "tsk tsk" note.
2. People occasionally do it in the forums that I moderate. If I gotta start tossing around the infractions, I'd like to know.
Well, you've always been the "funny dick" so you get some slack.
Man, I hope no one goes around BigSoccer looking for potentially offensive terms to infract. That could really cut into some moderators time.