For those who said Kinnear got the better of Yallop in trades

Discussion in 'San Jose Earthquakes' started by sportsfan-quakes, Oct 22, 2009.

  1. sportsfan-quakes

    Mar 19, 2005
    San Jose
    For those of you who were sure that Dom Kinnear was a genius and got the better of San Jose in all of the trades, have you been following Houston the past few months?

    Kamara turned into a disgruntled player and got shipped off to Kansas City last month for Abe Thompson and allocation $$, and now he's not even starting regularly for KC. In a total of 2087 minutes played this year, he scored 5 goals. Not bad, but not great. Wondo's scored 5 goals in about half that much time, and Glen has scored 4 goals in 1/4 of that time. San Jose got allocation money for Kamara and a 2009 first round pick. This trade is either even, or perhaps given the latest developments, in favor of San Jose. Houston did get a pretty good year from Kamara between the last half of last year and the first half of this year, but then it turned bad.

    San Jose traded Cam Weaver for Wondo and a 2010 draft pick (2nd or 3rd round, still tbd). Weaver has done ok for Houston, scoring 3 goals in just under 300 minutes played, but he's been out most of the time with injuries (including an injury he just got this week that has him doubtful for this Sunday). Weaver also got an early red card in the Dynamo game against Kansas City that forced the team to play with 10 men for 70+ minutes, with that match ending in a draw. Meanwhile, Wondo has done well with San Jose, with 3 goals and 1 assist and showing flexibility playing in a variety of midfield positions and forward. This trade is either even, or advantage San Jose (particularly for this year, as Weaver has mostly been unable to play)

    San Jose unloaded Ryan Cochrane for an Intn'l roster spot to Houston, in what really was a salary dump. Cochrane has played in several MLS games and also in several CCL games for Houston, and has not looked very good. If you watched the match tonight you saw Cochrane and Robinson mess up and give up 2 early goals to Metapan, and just not look very good on defense. Advantage to San Jose for this trade.


    Seems to me that if anything, Yallop has gotten the best of Kinnear in these trades. Or at least, the trades have turned out pretty even, with both teams getting what they wanted out of them. I certainly don't see that Kinnear has taken advantage of Yallop and ended up much better.

    Another trade Kinnear made that even the Dynamo fans on their BS board are saying was a big mistake was trading a high draft pick for Dominic Oduro. That trade wasn't with San Jose, but it's another example that Kinnear (particularly lately) doesn't seem to have any "magic touch" with his trades, and Houston as a team is struggling. Oduro has played 640 minutes in MLS matches and has yet to score, missing a number of easy chances.

    One more point - since the Weaver for Wondo trade in early June, here's the team records:

    Houston in MLS matches: 6-6-6

    San Jose in MLS matches: 5-6-6


    Obviously there was a lot more involved in the turnaround for San Jose than just getting Wondo, but my point is that the Quakes have played to virtually the same record that Houston has in the past 4 months, and a big part of that was the roster moves that San Jose made. So the next time someone posts that Kinnear is a genius and always gets the best of trades, maybe you should think twice about it.
     
    2 people repped this.
  2. Earthshaker

    Earthshaker BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 12, 2005
    The hills above town
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It looks like both teams have made average roster moves resulting in average performances. It's just that San Jose's moves turned them from a mediocre team to an average team and Houston's moves have turned them from a good team to an average team. :p
     
  3. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Doesn't Doyle make the trades?
     
  4. UrawaRed

    UrawaRed New Member

    Dec 19, 2000
    Kiyose, Tokyo
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I'd bet that it's a joint effort in deciding who to take and who not to.
     
  5. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nice summary and accurate from my perspective. Some minor adjustments should be made to Houston playing more games (CONCACAF) which I think has effected their games in MLS.
     
  6. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    s-q, I think you've got an axe to grind here a bit with the Weaver to Wondo trade. I'd rather have Wondo over Weaver, though, (and he's cheaper), so I agree with you on that one.

    As to the others, I think Kamara was traded for a 1st round draft pick (which I guess turned out to be Ring), and some unknown amount of allocation money. Hard to evaluate this one unless you can somehow figure the average value of a 1st round draft pick, and w/o knowing the allocation amount.

    As for Cochrane, remember that Dom effectively traded him once to the Quakes before re-acquiring him. It was given a spin in Houston like Dom was being nice to Ryan to let him go back to his college and former MLS team home, but it was actually a slick move by Dom. He unloaded Cochrane's considerable salary and saved his team from getting hit with another choice in the expansion draft. And in San Jose, Cochrane was hailed as the prize of the Quakes expansion draft. But Cochrane was not effective for the new Quakes, mostly due to injuries.

    Is Cochrane's contract coming due at the end of this season? If so, Dom can negotiate it down, in which he case he would have to bear his over-weight contract for just a half year. That might have been part of his motivation in bringing him back.

    Although his record has been more spotty recently, Dom should get a massive amount of credit for talent / player evaluation based on the phenomenal job that he did re-building the Quakes in 2005.
     
  7. sacrxy

    sacrxy BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 6, 2003
    [QUOTE=JazzyJ;19089520

    But Cochrane was not effective for the new Quakes, mostly due to injuries.


    Not too enamored with Ryan the first time around with Quakes.V2 to begin with. Glad to see a familiar face the first yr in Quakes.V3 but a franchise player he is not. Would rather have the cap room for someone else yr 3.
     
  8. markmcf8

    markmcf8 Member+

    Oct 18, 1999
    Vancouver, WA, USA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nice analysis!

    ?!

    ?! Why do we think that Doyle makes any decisions about the roster without Frank's advice, consent, and agreement?! We assume that Dom makes the trades at Houston, but we think that Doyle makes the trades in San José? Really? Do we have any inside information that makes us think that somehow Doyle picks the players and expects Frank to do well with guys he doesn't want? If that is so, then Doyle needs to be made into dog food at the soonest possible opportunity. But really, I think that Frank and JD make these decisions together.

    Or do some of us know better?! Speak up please.

    Wondo is a better fit for our team. I think that's the most important metric right there.

    As for whether or not we got the better or worse part of a trade, the question for me is: "Did OUR Quakes get better from this trade?" Sure, we always want to trade an unused bench player for another team's starting striker or attacking midfielder, but we don't get to do that very often.

    Wondo has been better for us than Weaver was for us. That's really all that matters.

    Glen has been better for us than either Campos or Weaver were for us. I still expect Campos to develop into a quality striker, but he was a poor fit with us because he didn't get decent service, which of course goes to other problems with our squad.

    qo quakes! :eek:

    - Mark
     
  9. ant0n

    ant0n Member+

    Jun 12, 2007
    San Jose, Ca
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yallop can't win without Kinnear. While Kinnear cab win without Yallop
     
  10. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because he's Frank's boss? (I'm not saying Frank doesn't give advise, consent, and agreement, but if there's a disagreement and a decision is to be made, one person ranks higher than the other.)
     
  11. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well I'm sure Yallop has some influence, but isn't it ultimately the GM's call? I could just be ignorant here, but isn't that how it works in other pro sports?
     
  12. sportsfan-quakes

    Mar 19, 2005
    San Jose
    JJ - I totally agree about Kinnear, I think overall he has done a great job in MLS. I was more trying to point out that he has had a more spotty record lately, and that maybe Yallop isn't so dumb about some of the deals he made.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "axe to grind" over Wondo/Weaver. I probably have an "axe to grind" with Quakes fans who continuously posted that San Jose keeps making stupid trades, particularly with Houston. I just think that San Jose got the better of that trade, I have not been impressed with Weaver at all in MLS. He MAY turn out to be a good player if he can stay healthy. He was most definitely not good with San Jose, and in spite of him having two matches where he scored 3 goals, he hasn't done much for Houston this year. I remember when everyone was saying "Dom will turn Weaver into a great forward like he did with Kei", and everyone assuming that San Jose just didn't know how to use Weaver. It hasn't turned out that way, at least this year (for Kei or Weaver). It still could next year, but with Ching and Landin already as kind of "target forwards", it seems like Houston really could use a different type of forward instead of Weaver.

    On Cochrane, actually Kinnear did not "unload his high salary". When he was exposed in the expansion draft he had just graduated from Gen Adidas, so he didn't have a high salary, I'm fairly certain San Jose is the team that negotiated his current contract. We can definitely blame Doyle/Yallop for negotiating a contract with Cochrane that was too high, can't pin that on Kinnear (or give Kinnear credit for unloading him). At the salary he was making as a Gen Adidas player (I think I remember it was in the $60k range) he was a good bargain. But at $150k, not so much.

    It will be interesting to see what Houston does with Cochrane and Robinson in the offseason (and Barrett). Those guys did a lot for the Quakes in 2005 and for Houston in 2006-2007, but they sure looked bad last night in the CCL match.
     
  13. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    By "axe to grind" I meant that you are, for whatever reason, a huge Wondo supporter, and my guess is that you are not happy that Dom traded him.

    I didn't realize that Cochrane's salary jump was the Quakes' doing. If so, I think that reflects most badly on Doyle. However, he was probably due for a big raise, as a starter for an MLS champion, etc., and I'm sure Dom was well aware of that. Most of the Houston starters like Ching got big raises when their contracts came due, particularly after championship seasons. For example, Mullan's salary is now 180k, ERob 140k, Wade Barrett 155k, etc. They had established a precedent for those kinds of salaries for the starters.
     
  14. sportsfan-quakes

    Mar 19, 2005
    San Jose
    Thanks for clarifying. Actually, I have no problem with Kinnear trading Wondo, I was happy that he came to the Quakes. And I can see how Kinnear thought it was good for Houston to get Weaver, as Kinnear is very much into the big, tall forwards (see Jaqua, Ching, now Landin). Wondo is more in between - decent height and size, but not a real physical or tall forward, and with decent speed but not a speed burner.

    On Cochrane, he had the classic situation where his contract came up at exactly the right time. He became a regular starter on a team with the best defense in MLS and they won MLS Cup. Even if Cochrane was just a small piece of the puzzle, it's hard to argue he deserved a raise. He also showed a lot of improvement from 2005 to 2007, so you'd assume Kinnear/Yallop expected that pattern to continue. But it seems like he has regressed significantly, probably due to his injuries and lack of playing time. As you say, Houston had a pattern of rewarding their starters with big raises, and so Cochrane was going to cash in. Perhaps not as much as what he got from San Jose, but probably close. For reference, Eddie Robinson, who partnered with Cochrane on the Houston team in 2006 and 2007, is making $137,800 this year compared to Cochrane's $146,250. Bobby Boswell, who made only league minimum in 2008 because he was on his orignal MLS contract from DC, is now making $150,000 this year as a result of resigning with Houston.
     
  15. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    Yeah, my guess is that Dom knew that, although Cochrane had contributed to their title run as a starter, he wasn't really that good, at least not good enough to get a huge salary raise. I don't know how Houston manages to pay all of those high salaries. It's crazy that they are still paying Wade 150k. I don't see how that can continue next year.
     
  16. brine

    brine Member

    Jan 8, 2002
    San Diego, CA
    Seems to me that FY and JD get along really well and work together to bring in new players. I doubt either of them would insist on a player the other really disagrees on. They have both said they see things basically the same way and it's a great working relationship.

    As for FY and Kinnear, I'd say they're both great coaches who have benefitted in trades with each other.

    But in the end, I prefer Wondo over anyone we've traded away. That kid works hard and I'm glad he's a Quake.

    Our club does not have an extensive scouting staff or a lot of money to spend on such efforts. Finding new players who can play at bargain prices isn't easy. I think FY has done a comendable job of bringing in some good talent and I can't wait for this weekend's beatdown of LA!
     
  17. sportsfan-quakes

    Mar 19, 2005
    San Jose
    They have some big decisions next year - from reading the Houston board, Wade just signed a new deal a year ago so his contract goes at least to next year. It may or may not be guaranteed, though. He's been the team captain since they were the Quakes in 2005, so that is probably the toughest decision - not just salary, does he keep the captaincy, etc.

    As for the overall salary Houston pays, they balance out the highly paid guys with quite a few players at league minimum (Ashe, Holden, Chabala, Cameron, and Oduro). But they have to be up against the current salary cap, that's part of why I'm guessing they traded Kamara to get the allocation to be able to afford signing Landin.
     
  18. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    Wow, talk about value. Holden, especially. Hard to believe that he makes league minimum.
     
  19. Blackball

    Blackball Member

    May 23, 2007
    Silicon Valley
    This is an important point. Basically, since we brought in Cornell Glen and dealt Nick Garcia, we have been playing "playoff-competitive" soccer. This is basically how Colorado played their whole season!

    As for our alumni playing in Houston (or not-playing, or not-playing in Kansas City), I think any forward will look better getting service from Mullan and Davis. But as time as gone one, I think SF-Q has it this one dead right.

    Also I'm as unhappy with the season, and especially the start, as anyone. But it seems with a somewhat stable line-up that FY coaches as well as others in MLS FWIW. My fingers are crossed that FY & JD will handle the upcoming off-season far better than last year, and that we do carry over a core and buildin upon it.

    GO QUAKES! ;)
     
  20. KMJvet

    KMJvet Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Cochrane wasn't hailed as a prize of the expansion draft by most of us who watched him play with the Quakes the first time around and in Houston and we're extremely dissapointed. Cochrane was not effective for the new Quakes because he's just not a particularly good player.

    His only reason to bring him back was to have enough bodies for the champions league. And he was somebody that already knew the system.
     
  21. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    Well, at around 180k, that's very expensive "cover". That's why I'm wondering if Cochrane's contract is up for renegotiation this year, and Dom and the Houston FO will try to knock 50k or more from his salary.
     
  22. KMJvet

    KMJvet Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I suspect so. I also suspect everyone's counting on a higher salary cap. I wouldn't be surprised if their longer term wish is to move him on Portland.
     
  23. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I think this is the only statistic that really matters! Everything else means nothing.....


    x - Los Angeles 29 11 6 12 45 34 31 3 6 4 4 16 17 5 2 8 18 14
    x - Houston 29 12 8 9 45 36 27 9 8 1 6 23 13 4 7 3 13 14
    x - Chivas USA 29 13 10 6 45 32 28 4 9 2 3 23 11 4 8 3 9 17
    x - Seattle 29 11 7 11 44 36 28 8 6 2 6 19 9 5 5 5 17 19
    Colorado 29 10 9 10 40 42 35 7 8 2 5 25 10 2 7 5 17 25
    FC Dallas 29 11 12 6 39 49 45 4 8 3 4 28 19 3 9 2 21 26
    Real Salt Lake 29 10 12 7 37 40 35 5 8 1 5 31 11 2 11 2 9 24
    San Jose 29 7 13 9 30 36 48 -12 6 5 4 22 21
     
  24. due time

    due time Member+

    Mar 1, 1999
    Santa Clara
    Huge value. But keep in mind, it's only because Holden aspires to play in Europe and was unwilling to re-negotiate a longer term contract with a concomitant salary increase.

    Essentially, Houston gets a very high value, but for only for a short time.
     
  25. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    Probably a good move by Holden. Patience should pay off for him. But yeah, Houston's going to have a big hole to fill, and they won't be able to fill it with anything like 34k.
     

Share This Page