Football Tactics

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by Orange14, Nov 11, 2011.

  1. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
  2. SF19

    SF19 Member+

    Jun 8, 2013
    What do you guys make of Johnny van't Schip? He's now coach of Greece and has managed to improve not only the results, but the quality of Greece's play. He took a team that was uninspired and turned them into a group that plays to win by taking the game to the opposition. Greece now wants the ball. I was very skeptical given his less-than-impressive CV, but admittedly he has impressed.
     
  3. I'm glad he managed to take the Greece play to a higher level and probably also more fun to watch.
    He's a coaching talent still earning his laurels.
     
  4. SF19

    SF19 Member+

    Jun 8, 2013
    Well, we were very uninspired and there was no discipline nor organization under the previous coach. The senior players had a falling out with the federation too.

    Initially van't Schip made the team a lot more disciplined and organized defensively, but offensively our issues remained. After the loss to Italy (which was only his third game in charge), he played a more attractive, adventurous style built quite a bit on grit and sheer determination. We looked a lot more purposeful on the ball and better structured to keep possession. There is a renewed belief and focus. It's night and day to the Otto/Santos era where Greece treated the ball like a game of hot potato and simply closed up shop.

    He also took a big gamble playing a left-back as a center-back and provided this player the captaincy. He's not exactly a regular. I'm not particularly crazy about the idea, but overall despite might reservations it has proven to be successful enough considering the team's circumstances.
     
  5. :ROFLMAO: How hot?;)
     
  6. @Orange14
    Misplaced it. Should be in the analytic thread.
     
  7. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    What was misplaced, the post above?
     
  8. yup. I think it should be in the analytics thread, as it analyses how de Vrij acts while defending.
     
  9. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    It has been moved as requested.
     
  10. :thumbsup:
     
  11. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    EtH is doing this on occasion dropping Alavarez back and pushing both FBs forward!! It's going to be an interesting CL matchup between Atalanta and Ajax.
     
  12. Honigstein analyses Bayern
    https://theathletic.com/2306410/2021/01/12/bayern-munich-football-soccer/

    From his article after the Gladbach beated them 3-2.


    Before the season started, Goretzka had wondered aloud whether Flick’s high-pressing game could be sustainable across this season’s condensed calendar. The answer is elusive. Bayern’s attacking-third pressing has only gone down a little (from 34 per cent in 2019-20 under Flick to 31 per cent) but it’s still more aggressive than it has been under Kovac (28 per cent) and perhaps more importantly, is no less effective overall.

    Their successful pressure percentage (percentage of time Bayern gained possession within five seconds of applying pressure) remains 35 per cent across the board, the same as last season when Flick was in charge.

    It’s thus too easy to say their pressing doesn’t work any more. Something’s amiss, nevertheless.

    Bayern are allowing almost 25 per cent more shots per game (11.3 to 8.5) on average than last season, and the average quality of those shots has slightly increased (from 0.11 xG to 0.12 xG). Taken by themselves, these numbers don’t look dramatic, but their product (an xG against of 1.4) does: allowing the opposition half an expected goal more than last season per game, on average, inevitably leads to more opposition goals, even with goalkeeper Manuel Neuer in inspired form. It’s a comparably small sample to go from this season, but the trend does not make for positive viewing for Bayern at present.

    Each member of the back four is certainly struggling to play at comparable levels. Benjamin Pavard looks sluggish on the right, as does Alphonso Davies on the left following his lengthy lay-off with an ankle injury. Neither Sule nor Jerome Boateng has been comfortable alongside David Alaba, whose own form has also markedly suffered.

    Frequent changes in midfield, where Joshua Kimmich and Goretzka have only lined up next to each other seven times in 21 games in the Bundesliga and Champions League have had a further detrimental effect on the team’s stability, as has the lack of available training time, no doubt.

    Tiredness, injuries and a crucial lack of impact from the bench have all exacerbated the issue, just as they have done at Liverpool after Diogo Jota’s injury, incidentally.

    Bayern’s similarly energy-zapping, precision pressing game, is tough to maintain without regular replacements. Whether it’s sporting director Hasan Salihamidzic’s fault for not getting in good enough players or Flick’s, for not giving the likes of Marc Roca more game time, is one of the politically-fraught questions that will arise if the malaise were to continue.
     
  13. PSV coach Schmidt uses the same tactic and should read it carefully.
     
  14. Jalepinho

    Jalepinho Member

    Aug 18, 2014
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    for anyone interested in learning about football tactics , there is a course on football tactics on udemy. its more for beginners though... i actually find watching football alot more interesting now that i understand what are the adv and disadv of certain formations (i.e. why use a double pivot etc..). anyways just thought i'd share this.

    https://www.udemy.com/course/football-tactics/
     
    feyenoordsoccerfan and Orange14 repped this.

  15. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/new...ll-is-not-the-only-path-to-victory/ar-AALo7kB
    [​IMG]
    There is always a danger of fighting the last war. In March, after England’s uninspiring 2-1 win over Poland, Gareth Southgate spoke of France and Portugal, respectively the world and European champions, as models, referring to them as “savvy and experienced winners”. Which is perhaps a polite way of saying a little bit boring. But then most successful international sides are, based on the construction of a solid base and a couple of gifted creators who can extemporise upon that – or at least they have been.

    The sophisticated models that dominate at elite club level take time to instil. To press effectively in the modern game takes weeks of repetitions on the training ground so that players know instinctively when to hunt the ball and when to ease off. And pressing is pointless if it isn’t coherent: it’s just players running about. It works only if conducted in packs: one or two men to the man in possession, a wave of others blocking off his options, either by closing down opponents or the passing lanes.

    The logic over the past decade or so was that sustained and consistent pressing was essentially impossible for national teams – unless, like Chile under Marcelo Bielsa, you had the same squad of players together for years or, like South Korea under Guus Hiddink, you had lengthy training camps to provide the requisite time. The tendency, as manifested in France and Portugal, was for teams to sit deep and, if they used a back four, to have the full-backs play far more cautiously than they would in elite club football.

    France and Portugal are still playing in essentially the same way as they did – although so far not especially impressively. Against far lesser opposition, England, the diligent pupil, have looked more secure, one of two sides to complete the group stages without conceding. Low blocks remain common. Sweden, familiar 4-4-2 intact, have, bar a 25-minute wobble in the second half against Poland, been impressively unruffled. Finland were predictably solid. Slovakia, playing a mystifying system with two false nines and a static midfield, got lucky against Poland before finally taking the hammering it had seemed due against Spain.

    Spain, meanwhile, seem more themselves the more Luis Enrique tries to change them. They have the joint third-best xG against per game, and let in a single goal, but did so not by sitting deep but by holding possession. Their total of 2,129 completed passes is 13% more than anybody else at this stage – and they also have the highest success rate with their pressing, a reminder that possession football is not just about retaining the ball but regaining it.

    But elsewhere there are early signs, perhaps, that a challenge is rising to the reactivity that has dominated for the past decade. The first indications came at the 2018 World Cup, which was a far more open and progressive tournament than the two World Cups that had preceded it. Belgium have retained the 3-4-3 shape that got them to the semi-final in Russia and, while their defence is older, slower and clearly missing the retired Vincent Kompany, their front seven is as attractive as ever.

    [​IMG] © Provided by The Guardian Romelu Lukaku and Kevin De Bruyne provide Belgium with attacking flair but the role of Axel Witsel is also vital. Photograph: Anatoly Maltsev/AFP/Getty Images
    Rickety as their defence may be, the extra man at the back – in combination with Axel Witsel at the back of midfield (which is why his fitness is so vital) – liberates the wide defenders. Germany, belatedly and chaotically, have followed a similar logic, although they have the problem that by far their best real holding midfielder, Joshua Kimmich, is also their best right-wing-back.

    Frank De Boer had faced opposition for his use of a back three from Dutch purists, but his 3-4-1-2 so far has worked – with the caveat that the Netherlands were in probably the weakest group and that they very nearly fell apart against Ukraine in the opening game. Denzel Dumfries tearing forward from right-wing-back has been one of the defining images of the tournament so far, and nobody has attempted more pressures in the final third than the Netherlands. At international level, it has begun to feel that a back three is a way of incorporating attacking full-backs.

    But most impressive so far have been Italy, who won all three group games without conceding, while pressing in a 4-3-3 and having their left-back, Leonardo Spinazzola, play gleefully high. The midfield, with Jorginho holding and distributing from deep, Nicolò Barella creating and Manuel Locatelli (who may step aside for Marco Verratti) shuttling between them, has a pleasing harmony and there is a threat from two wide forwards drifting infield. They have the verve and balance of a club side, which suggests that with a driven and high-class manager such as Roberto Mancini and a gifted squad (perhaps crucially with no overwhelming star), international football can be about more than low blocks and fear.

    For a long time, national teams represented the highest form of the game. Then it began to lag behind the club game before, 10-15 years ago as sophisticated pressing took over at elite clubs, becoming effectively a different version of the sport. Major tests remain for Italy, and their 30-game unbeaten run they faced only one side in the top 15 in the Fifa world rankings, but they perhaps are an example of how international football can still be informed by the club game. The knockouts could reinforce the status quo, but it may be that a risk-free low block is no longer enough.
     
  16. BaritoPutra

    BaritoPutra Member+

    Jan 26, 2007
    So, Italy “borrowed” the high-flying 4-3-3 playbook from the Dutch… and they went on to win three out of three, scoring 7 and giving up none. Yep, got it. :cautious::sneaky:

    IMHO, Italy is the team to beat in this tournament. Their midfield, as the article correctly pointed out, has been very impressive!
     
  17. SF19

    SF19 Member+

    Jun 8, 2013
    As I understand, what really kick started the wing-back trend were the Brazilians in the 50s. Players like Nilton Santos, who scored a goal in the 1958 final, made the idea popular.

    The only difference with the Dutch is the Brazilians historically preferred 4-2-4 or 4-2-2-2, which gives even more importance to these players.

    On a separate but related noted, Vialli, Mancini's buddy, claimed that the worst player on every team is the right-back. Not good enough to be a winger and not good enough to be a center-back. Left-backs were better only because left footed players are more of a rarity and given more attention to their development as a result.
     

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