There's no reason to kill a good discussion by reframing things as extremes. It's an entirely valid question specific to this situation. If you believe there is a general malaise, specifically with the top players, who is going to fix that. We've had two coaches try and fail. The first was an American who brought many of them into the national team, led them to titles and some of them even fought at one point to keep. The second is an elite coach we were told everyone should respect and listen to with high level club success, strong tactical chops, and the sweet allure of Argentina. What do we try with Coach #3? Before you actually move on and hire one, you should probably think about what might work, or, gasp, understand that much of this is probably with the players and they might have to drag themselves out of it. Because before Poch, the big thing was that someone at AC Milan couldn't respect Berhalter, or that Berhalter, because of his first coaching job a decade ago, couldn't coach offense, or that he was too restrictive (see the Swiss game for too much freedom) or that he made them too comfortable (and now people are shitting about players not performing and not getting called in -- just like they wanted). So who are we going for? What's the magic formula? Or is it possible we should let this coach have his two years and see if this is growing pains? Some of you will freak out at that but you are probably the same folks who dismissed the idea of the next coach being "worse" than Berhalter.
Part of the problem with bringing in an overseas "star" manager for the NT who's not familiar with the US game. A lot these selections seem to be out of the blue. Most national teams have introduced some sort of pathway from youth to U17 to U20 to senior level. We seem to have a pathway from youth to U20 and U23 in Olympic years but the senior squad is currently pot luck. Stewart left, McBride left, Berhalter left and most of the age group coaches moved into club management. Much as some people take issue with Berhalter in hindsight it may have been prudent to "boot him upstairs", rather than lose him completely, for his familiarity with the playing pool and his experience of recruiting dual nats. Or we could have hired Jesse.
And whenever a player is like this, people want to look for alternatives. When you look for alternatives, there is the possibility that those players do not succeed or are not better. But you need to bring them in and play them most times to tell. The idea that this friendly loss should trigger such angst over not bringing in Joe Scally makes me laugh. Especially since the original plan was Dest + Freeman. Now, I don't know why late replacements always seem to be local guys as if a plane flight is too much, but they have for coach after coach after coach. Maybe, unlike Haji, Scally was already on vacation. Dunno. But if someone sets a floor, and that floor is frankly limiting, then you should look for other options. Those other options should not be expected to have a 100% hit rate. 100% agree but I don't think any of those are WTF call-ups except Harriel, and that's my point. Put them out with most of the A team or even the best of this camp and they won't look WTF necessarily. But in general, this reminds me so much of the 3-0 loss to Mexico. So much panic, so freaking immaterial. And that was with a far better roster. The reason why Scally doesn't make sense to me is that I need to evaluate RBs. I agree having reliable guys to plug in is important, but backup RB and backup LB are two of the biggest need areas to evaluate. I don't think this is true. The guys he literally didn't call up are what, Josh Sargent, Joe Scally, maybe someone like Tanner Tessman? The core that didn't come was hurt or it was clearly their choice. (And no, I don't give a shit about the friendlies so having Puli here for two games is somewhat pointless). Start Richards, Tillman, de la Torre and Luna and get Harriel off the field and we're totally fine. I don't think we beat the Swiss, but it's not that. And that's without Adams. The issue with personnel isn't who isn't in camp; it's the wholesale rotation and gameplan.
I don't care about Scally being there, or not, he doesn't have to be there, but if I'm the coach, and I want to figure out some new guys for RB, and LB, I'm gonna play them with CB's and 1 other fullback that are familiar with one another, the keeper, and the 6 at bare minimum. When you play a group where the only guy who is used to playing with anyone else is Zim with his keeper, that's a recipe for disaster. Pick the prospects/young vets you want to evaluate, and play them with guys who can make the evaluation actually work, or pick the best young players, familiar with each other from the U17/U20/U23 and everything in-between, and play them with vets who've rolled together. This just seems like a jambalaya of guys who've never played together w/rando's Poch inexplicably has his eye on, he got away with it against Turkey because he mixed the best roster players with just 1 or 2 young, largely unbloodied prospects, for this, it was never gonna work because Turner didn't know his defense or half of his midfield, they didn't know each other, and beyond two brothers, the attacking spear and CM had no familiarity with one another whatsoever. You simply can't roll that out and evaluate freaking ANYTHING. It's worthless as a tool, and oh so so so predictable. The only reason I bring up Scally, is because Scally would set a floor, like Zim, or Trusty, or CCV or Tessman or whomever and all of them have logged repped with one another either in senior camps, youth teams or both. You need to have guys that when they look in front of them, or to the left or right, they know everyone, or most, or if you're the new guy, you know the guys around you, know each other and can execute with one another. This was the opposite, and a totally predictable disaster. I was so annoyed (briefly) I was out on a trip out of Nevada, and so couldn't do bets immediately on the Swiss, because that result was the most predictable result in the history of my USMNT watching lifetime.
Pulisic says he offered to play in friendlies only, but Poch wanted one roster for both friendlies and Gold Cup. If Poch wanted one roster for the whole window, and left our four best players out of the friendlies because of it (Pulisic, McKennie, Weah, and Reyna), then he made a dumb decision.
I don't think you can make blanket generalizations like that. All depends on the player. Donovan scored what, 2 club goals in D1 soccer outside of the US, and he's tied for the most in USMNT history? I'd say his MLS goalscoring translated pretty well. And with those numbers above I think we'd need to see minutes and opponent to really get a useful read. Josh Sargent is a non-MLS goalscorer whose numbers are not better than many of those guys above. Of the top 5 USMNT goal scorers, 4 of the 5 spent most of their career and socred most of their goals with MLS teams. Certainly it is a highly useful data point if a guy has shown that he can be a successful goalscorer in respectable D1 leagues outside the US. But I don't think it's a requirement. Donovan didn't really even do that.
I didn't say anything about that. Just that being a scorer in MLS, historically, means roughly ********-all in terms of scoring for the national team. Especially if it's one of these guys that's clearly an MLS lifer for lack of options elsewhere. Also, not to defend Sargent's honor too forcefully, but he really only became a decent goalscorer in 2022 and he's gotten like 200 US minutes since the World Cup.
Well, it meant a lot for Donovan, for one. There are very few successful USMNT goalscorers, and as I've said 4 of the top 5 scored the majority of their goals and played the majority of their careers in MLS. So MLS goalscroring must mean something?
It's not MLS specifically. It's just second tier leagues. I'm not sure why people think Championship goal scoring is supposed to translate to the USMNT. Or Eredivisie. What prior US players were amazing goal scorers at that level in either league. Jozy was pretty good for the US but most count him a disappointment. Right now, we have Wright, Sargent and Dike all scoring pretty well per minute in the Championship but aside from a bit of success for Wright, it hasn't translated. Both of the US' leading goalscorers were effective goalscorers for the US while doing well in MLS. Brian McBride had 20 USMNT goals before heading over to Everton. Ricardo Pepi was our best striker while in MLS. Scoring in a second tier league isn't a guarantee of anything. Hell, Jordan Pefok had a good half year in the Bundesliga and wasn't very good for us. But it doesn't exclude anything. Not surprisingly, with the international game being more wide open, less organized and generally more dependent on athleticism, it's not overly a shock that second tier strikers lacking a physical edge often fail to translate.
An American assistant coach could have informed Poch that we have something in this country called "The Ralston Line"! That's one guy... a single data point that's not like the others is an "outlier".... But these aren't just data points we know the actual stories behind them. Donovan was the best player in USMNT history (with the most goals and assists) and could have played in Europe (and did go on two successful loans to Everton) but chose to stay in MLS and ended up being the best player in MLS history finishing his career with a bunch of trophies and leading the league in both goals and assists. By definition you can't have a bunch of players like that.
Poch's decision? “I did speak with the coaches, and then I asked and I wanted to be a part of the team in whatever capacity I could. And they said no. They said they only wanted one roster, and that's the coach's decision. I fully respect that. I didn't understand it, but it is what it is.”— Doug McIntyre (@ByDougMcIntyre) June 12, 2025 Jesse Marsch seems to be creating a culture with the Canadians Jesse Marsch wants everyone to know that every single #CanMNT star wanted to be at the #GoldCup."Not one guy called me and said, ‘Coach, it’s been a long year, maybe I don’t come.’ Not even close to that conversation." #USMNT📸: @seanpollock https://t.co/1RKKTZH0M5— Canadian Soccer Daily (@CANSoccerDaily) June 12, 2025 It's not like Poch has a ton of international windows with any these guys before the World Cup, or to have new players integrate with the regulars... someone defend this decision
but like 8 players from CWC were playing for Switzerland and turkey, including players from Juventus and Dortmund. So they would have had to release players for these friendlies.
If Poch can't get it done this guy seems to be doing okay at the moment: One of the best USYNT windows in recent memory… France ✅ Argentina ✅Australia ✅Portugal ✅The U18 squad was standing on business at the Friendship Cup pic.twitter.com/MAkP9jX8tb— Youth Soccer Central (@yscentral) June 11, 2025 Honored to rep the 🇺🇸 in Switzerland leading the U18 USMNT at the UEFA Friendship Cup. In a 2-week span we knocked off France 🇫🇷, Argentina 🇦🇷, Australia 🇦🇺 and Portugal 🇵🇹Proud of this group of players, coaches & staff. 🏆 Next: 🤷🏽♂️Just going to enjoy this for now. 😏🪶🧢 pic.twitter.com/zMTUf4wF1A— Marlon LeBlanc (@MarlonLeBlanc4) June 11, 2025
Those players Poch likes are just not good. Sure, he can impose his will on the program, but to what end? Sarge, Scally et al are just much better than the people he selected.
I agree with your general point and it should have been an option on the table especially since the CWC is here in the states. These friendlies were an opportunity to prepare for the WC against competition we rarely face. Eliminating that to focus on the GC with an atrocious roster full of guys who won't be at the WC is pretty stupid.
the whole deal is complex to rationalize (reasonable decisions all over the place): I need to respect the Gold Cup, and have a good squad to make a run to win it, and use that as a total roster stepping stone for next year. But .... I have the CWC staring me in the face and have lost key players. I have injuries - and that must be respected. I have two friendlies against top notch opponents - who are treating these friendlies as critical on US soil tests as preparation for next year - a great test. I have players who want a rest after a long two seasons - and need to recharge - but also want to help the squad - although they want to show up for the top opponents only and not against the GC opponents - does that take away from my roster selection and team building to win the GC. Hajj and girlfriends and golf - will just let that hang out there .... I have MLS and overseas - which shall I emphasize or not ... or do I even care ... I have lots and lots of egos - between current players and former players and commentators/podcasters, and managers getting paid $6M/year to do their homework. We have lost 2 in a row and just lost two more. oh what to do? Clearly this situation is not simple and digital ...
Poch having never spoken to Sebastian Berhalter not ideal, Poch having never spoken to dual nat Nathaniel Brown is quite troubling, Poch having never spoken to Sergino Dest whose absence so many are using as the excuse for Poch's poor results because he's so important is a pretty big red flag, Poch having spoken to Pulisic the best player on the team just once... what the hell does this guy who is being paid $6 million a year to coach the USMNT do with this time???
Marsch really makes my blood boil. Never misses a chance to stick the knife in. Poch would never be so petty. Doesn’t make him a better coach, but at least I don’t want to punch him in the face. WE WANT CANADA!!!! I hope someone clues the team in on this douchebag and make it the goal to wipe that team off the face of the earth.
Wouldn't that be Poch's job as the coach? Isn't he the one trying to motivate his players? Has he even noticed Marsch's constant shots? And even if so, does he care?
Maybe? Some coaches just don’t roll like that. I only know that I specifically wouldn’t even think of waiting for the manager to point out how much I dislike this guy and you should to, he’s shitting all over us. I don’t know that there’s anyone in that locker room that would take personal offense to this stuff like I would, but I don’t think it would hurt to have a common enemy we could all destroy together.
Poch is NOT a great or even good motivator. I have NEVER seen a team he coached come out looking really focused or even excited about the match. I have also never seen any indication that he has the ability or desire to meaningfully punish or motivate players to better behavior is they screw up badly. Of course many players hold their emptions inside very well and neither their body language or their expressions betray what they are feeling. While that is a positive in many cases it is also a negative for any entire team. If Poch can't or doesn't motivate the other parts of his job become much less meaningful. I am basically an emotionless person but I found early on that motivation is actually as or more important than skill. And I had to motivate even really good teams, including some "punishments" if players perform badly. A long time ago i coached a really good U16 basketball team but they were mostly poor performers in school. The best of them started bringing home really bad grades and his grandmother told me that she (she was raising him) was going to pull him from the team. I thought about that for a while and told her that I might have a better way to handle the problem and she decided me to let me try. The next week we had a very important out of town game and, of course, the kids had to have signed releases to travel. At a practice i handed out the releases to take home and have signed but I did not give one to that star. He asked me why and I told him that he should ask his grandma but I said it was because of the poor grades. Of course kids talk and quite soon every kid on the team knew the why behind the snub. After that every grade on the team went up quite a bit and I overheard the boys talking once and they said, "If he'll leave "the star" at home for grades then all of us are in danger." I'll admit I got lucky with that as it could have backfired badly but I'll take the win even it it were luck. BTW: The kid i disciplined ended up with the best grades among all athletes at his school and only missed being valedictorian by 0.2 of a point. Discipline is needed in sports but coaches need to be careful that they do not over do it. I do not know if Poch has even tried to discipline players on the USMNT but what ever he has done or not done seems to be wrong as I see nothing from the players that makes me think he has done much of anything to make them care.
Being a good MLS striker has a very poor correlation with being a good national team striker. The vast majority of American players who put up decent goalscoring numbers in MLS amount to very, very little with the national team. It’s of note that the top 5 list you’re referencing only contains 2 strikers. The defending in MLS is so poor that the level of quality needed to succeed as a striker in the league is miles below what it takes to succeed internationally, which is why, for three decades, your regular 10-15 goal MLS striker flops over and over and over again with the US.