There’s an objective way to see what the worst Mexico team is, look at their Elo rating, find the stretch with a sustained low point total.
Might make the attraction to the US over England the media issue in England, plus not having the same kind of big personalities as England has. Maybe he thought it would be easier to deal with. The biggest issue right now, more than anything, to me anyway, and for me, is that I really don't have a stand. I don't know which side is right in this, or if any side is right, the players are playing poorly and appear unmotivated, there have been a litany of injuries after we seemed to have an injury reprieve in '21 and '22 beyond Robinson and Reyna in particular, our coach may or may not be engaged, he definitely buys the stupidity of recruiting being about what loyalty they need to show to us, first, which is asinine, in this kind of global world market place, littered with dual ants, it's the players that have the power, like NIL college football, denying that is pretending the sun won't rise in the morning. Good luck with that, it's rising whether you're here or not for several more billion years. Maybe it's just media speak, and maybe we should just pay more attention to the fact that Downs is in camp, and maybe that means more than public statements. We'll see. I'm not excited to see the team, but I am very excited to watch certain players like Luna, hoping for Tillman to have a good game, finally, hoping we see better from some other individuals, getting Dest back etc. Excited to see Agyemang get a big, big, big step up in quality if he gets minutes in the June friendlies etc. But the team itself, I'm torn, I don't think what's happening is the end of the world. In '94 things were a mess, and we beat Colombia, and maybe the R16's, we were literally on strike before heading to Copa America '95, in '02 we had a billion injuries during qualification, and didn't even figure out what our team would be, w/certain exceptions until winter/spring '02, '10 was a struggle post Davies, we could be fine by this fall or a total disaster afterwards. I just don't know. I'm worried, I never thought in a million years it would be even 1/5th this bad two years ago in the summer. This has been stunningly awful....but there's plenty of hope still to be had, right now we need health, we need players to get right, we need players to get the right moves, and we need to take seriously the fact that we only have 3 more windows left before the May friendlies and ensuing pre-WC camp of '26. Not Great.
Are you familiar with Machiavelli’s warnings about the use of mercenaries? I think the dynamic absolutely plays out when it comes to dual nats.
I'm aware, but I think we should recruit, and for players that clearly just aren't up for it, move on, some dual hats will be interested, and engaged, some won't be. We have to figure it out as we go and recruit away. Consider Pepi, for instance, and his best XI historically, all El Tri, w/few exceptions, nearly impossible to argue that his favorite national team growing up was anything other than El Tri, just like all my Mexican-American students,, save one, but in the end he went with us, and we get his all every match and every training. Some won't be like that, and we can move along, but some will be like Pepi, and Jones, and become absolutely essential. We need to do the work. Do you set a standard of commitment? I think Berhalter's approach was probably the best one: hard core recruitment, without making fundamental demands of the players, letting them choose after we put our best foot forwards. That was probably my single favorite part of the Berhalter tenure, was how he handled dual nats individually, and recruiting in general.
Outcomes are always ranges of probabilities and even with a full roster, there's nothing assured. I'm not judging by single outcomes -- especially since we really didn't deserve to lose the Panama match but by a broader timeline of performance across multiple coaches now. And then there's the plan against Panama, and the lineup and the decisions. We'll discard the fact that I think their best is likely worse than most people do. We'll also ignore that expecting people to perform at their best consistently is really inconsistent with the concept of "their best." I'll just say that I agree that even with my lowered expectations, the performances have been below a reasonable expected case. There's no doubt that both Berhalter and Pochettino have failed to elevate the team in the 2026 cycle or even keep them average to their talent. Where I think we differ is that I really don't expect coaches to be able to elevate teams consistently. I don't think there's a magic switch that they can flip on demand. I think they can enhance and optimize. I think once in a while, they hit the perfect set of people and time. Sometimes the players simply do it and the coach gets credit. To put it another way, with two coaches failing to engage the players, I think there's stronger evidence that a third or fourth coach would also struggle. Call it a very high level of difficulty. I see people saying with Marsch that "at least they'd play hard" -- I'm not so sure as I think like Gregg and Mauricio, Jesse would struggle with guys that don't want to kill themselves for the shirt. Yeah, I don't really agree with this either on a high level or in specific. For one, what we see as a gameplan is not a gameplan. It's the player's execution of a gameplan. And I don't just mean that sometimes players don't do as they are told, although that occurs as well. Or even that any soccer gameplan requires a TON of player decision making, especially in international play, though that clearly is a thing. What I mean is that things that are smart ideas can look freaking terrible when someone doesn't execute at all. I know the counter is "don't ask players to do things that they can't do" but the issue is that a) sometimes you have to figure that out and stretch players b) sometimes they can't but don't and c) if they aren't executing, they don't execute anything well in many cases. I am a big believer in nearly everything that you can win executing a poor plan but you can't win executing an amazing plan -- execution is more important than strategy / tactics. The reality is that this team has a lot of gaps, and the team in March had no reliable fullbacks, is weak at CB and GK, had no reliable striker, and the team in general, sans Dest and Reyna, struggles with ball progression. That's hard to gameplan around, and then the team comes out with little fight and gets pushed around. I don't care what the tactical plan is, with that effort level and that talent level, the team isn't going to look good. Does that mean Poch played the right players or the right gameplan? No. But the level of execution and effort I saw combined with that player pool ... the gameplan was largely irrelevant to me. The one argument I can sympathize with is that Poch should have moved / be moving to a less possession based, more aggressive system and choose players accordingly. Perhaps. Perhaps he still will. I think with a year left and only six months in, it was worth seeing if the team could step up. I will be interested to see what Poch does with a weaker pool and less time at the GC. When I look at a lot of the player failures in March, like Scally or Sargent, I think it is fine he gave them one more chance. But part of the criticism I have of people like Edgar is that they will say the team has no fire, the team isn't executing, the team needs to find guys who will fight and then get mad when we drop people who are crippling our team simply because, I guess, Europe? No one who watches this team should be mad we dropped Josh Sargent. No one. He hasn't delivered, even in underlyings. Has Sargent had a very small sample to prove himself? Yes. But is his inability to score a major issue with our offense, and despite what people will say to the contrary, actually a bigger problem if we're struggling with service? Yes -- if you aren't creating a lot of chances, you need a dude who will actually get a shot on goal and create something from nothing. It's the same with the Tillman obsession. The USMNT is nowhere near playing like PSV, both in relative skill levels AND in time practicing. Acting like we should be gameplanning to put Tillman in the same position as PSV is largely impossible. We just noted how injured we are and how incomplete the roster is! Tillman either needs to adapt his game -- which he hasn't done well -- or we need to look elsewhere. I think it is weird to think Pochettino has no idea how to use Tillman -- the dude has designed high level possession offenses successfully over and over. It's that the way Tillman is used at PSV isn't actually possible with this roster against decent teams. But the hard reality is that you can complain about playing so and so over another guy; the reality is that we have some key gaps in our talent. I feel like I might be the only person who read up on Poch, but he's absolutely the guy to challenge players to step up and execute more than a guy who simply drops a gameplan or immediately drops players at first blush. This isn't new. It's certainly not because he's not trying with the US. It's because he's new agey and development focused, and he really thinks that if he pushes Joe Scally, he will actualize a better game. Of course, it's the international game, and even Poch realizes there's a limit. Likewise, another thing people are misreading, I think, is Poch's lack of direct communication. He's always been a bit hierarchical. His players seems to largely love him, but he has been distant communicating before -- one common complaint is not knowing why you've been dropped. Another thing is that he takes more of a parental view -- he doesn't go in the locker room at times (sacred place for the players) and he uses his assistant coaches as a level in his hieararchy. Is this good? No. Is it something that is much more Latin American than American? Hell, yes. It is something he's doing only because he doesn't give a shit about the US? No, I don't think so. This is him. By now, you should realize I don't really care for people who complain incessantly because they feel emotions. Especially about sports. Real life issues, I'm there for you. Game threads or in person, great, we all got that. Four months after the game, I have no interest in rants. I think there are times when you equate any criticism of criticism as criticizing you. And it's not. There are absolutely a group of fans who want to absolve the players of everything. Oh, the players would care if Poch did. I don't know how you know that. If people really think this, then I don't know why they think this team can win shit. Straight up, if Christian Pulisic can't make up his own mind about whether to play for the US because the coach does a charity match in his spare time, we are straight ********ed because Christian doesn't have the mindset to win anyway. There are absolutely times when a bad coach can kill a locker room. Poch has the exact opposite reputation, there's literally been nothing from the players on this (and we constantly saw people trying to create the narrative with Berhalter first cycle), and since it was from before Poch was there ... why do we put this on Poch? Oh, Tillman kills it at club, why can't Berhalter or Poch unlock that? Why is that the question? Why can't TILLMAN unlock that? Straight up, people are right he has the skills and tools. Poch put him a role to play centerpiece and he didn't. He just lacks assertiveness. I'm sorry, but that's not on Poch unless Poch told him to "stay there and not move ever." There's a reason we got that Dele Alli quote. No, the coaches aren't good enough so far to get strong commitment and execution out of the team. This is true. What I'm saying is that in nearly every situation, this is 85% on the player themselves. And as such, there are times when the coach simply can't do what you are asking. This may be one of those times. It's like blaming a track coach for not getting his runners down to a 3 minute mile. What's he supposed to do? Maybe there is a coach out there that could fix this. If there is, I don't know how you identify them. I don't know that Pochettino is out of ideas, either. I simply think that between a bunch of young, skilled players who don't like to get dirty and have been told they are the shit their whole life, and a now-veteran crew maybe exhausted and seeing club play as more important as they want to keep their spots, plus still feeling injuries and the lost generation ... maybe there's nothing to do. Hell, maybe a complete reset for the vets is actually the right move. Let Pulisic get back his passion for the national team -- the dude clearly cares a ton, he might just need a break from it like Donovan did. Same with Weston. And in the interim, let's identify which of the young kids are entitled and which are hungry, tear your face off players. Because the best thing to bookend the core is actually the latter. Like I said, I question that. First of all, there's not a lot of high end coaches like Poch who want a national team job AND want to be as engaged as a much lesser, American coach would be. That's a unicorn to begin with. We don't get to try coaches; we get to hire one and ride them for a while. I don't know how you identify this unicorn if they exist. As it was clear Berhalter's motivational style was losing efficacy, we went with someone that everyone would have to respect (a big thing for people like Edgar, who believed that was a big issue for the Euro players) and who had a good motivational rep that mixed high end competitiveness with some new age paternalism that might blend better with young Americans than a taskmaster type. It made sense. It hasn't worked. And yes, instead of pretending that Poch is failing because he went to a charity match instead of admitting that maybe, the malaise was not because people didn't respect Berhalter ... that's the bullshit I am talking about. The malaise, the motivational issues, even getting a red card, were all pinned on Berhalter and the culture he supposedly built. A new coach was supposed to solve it. It hasn't. Yet now the criticisms are now that it's because the new coach isn't trying hard enough -- even though everyone only has a very, very superficial view of that. It's time to question the assumption of what the primary driver of the malaise is. We changed one variable and nothing changed. That doesn't mean it doesn't contribute in a complex system, but on a very basic level, it shifts focus to the variables that didn't change. That's the players.
Chepo's tenure with Mexico was bad. They base the "worst Mexico ever" not because of its record wkth Tata but because they didn't get past group stage at the World Cup. Tata didn't do that bad with Mexico. And the next coaches after him were given real short leashes. It's like USSF giving a short leash to Pochetino and deciding to fire him after losing in Nations League. Which brings me to another point, is this the worst USMNT since 2017? Does that take credit away from what Mexico is doing because we are that bad?
The issue, in part, I think, is actually with the fanbase and how they are talked about growing up. In the European context, the players may need to constantly fight for their starting spot. However, when they go on USMNT twitter and the whole fanbase is like "Why Berhalter over Tessman" they message they get is that the coach isn't fair, not that they need to improve. They've largely been glazed since they were young -- there's a reason we see less of an issue with Pulisic and Adams and the such given how less of a social focus there was and how they had to excel to get paid or moved for millions. And by here, good culture isn't "guys like you," it's "work their ass off."
Player pools are not immutable. Players improve and decline. Players perform differently. Players get hurt. They are not machines. It's also worth noting that the try-hard, veteran, hustle, etc., player pools under Berhalter largely performed better than his second term which complemented the core with talent, but inexperienced youngsters without a lot of steel.
I don't have to look at that. I remember when they were a St Zusi goal from even making a WC in which they didn't repay the favor four years later to which I still highly hold a grudge.
For one we had Dest for all those trophies which is a huge loss. This most recent window also had us missing Jedi who isn’t really replaceable. We were also missing both Pepi and Balogun in March. Reyna also just doesn’t seem to be at his past level and that’s a big loss also. He scored in the final in two of those four where we won trophies. Matt Turner has also taken a step back from when we were winning the trophies. Musah has also been in particularly bad form both for club and country. So a lot of the same players but not quite at the same level because of injuries, poor form, etc.
I don't know who "they" are but the 2011 Mexico squad included: DF Rafa 32 ex Barca DF Salcido 31 Fulham DF Hector Moreno 23 PSV then Roma DF Rodriguez 29 PSV then Stuttgart MF Juarez 23 Celtic MF Guardado 24Depor LA Liga FW Barrera 23 West Ham FW Chicharito 23 Man U FW GDS 22 Racing Santader That was a very stacked team.
So was the USMNT Copa America team. Stacked. Yet, they did horrible. Worst performance ever. Or "worst Mexico ever" is being based on where the players play at? Cause if so Mexico has always relied big on Liga MX.
Player quality and performance. Here is Mexico's ELO history https://www.international-football.net/country?team=Mexico
All this "worst Mexico ever" is just to discredit what Berhalter did.That's why even now USMNT fans and even media jumped into that ship. What they are basically saying is that USMNT is never good enough to beat Mexico unless Mexico is down bad. That's what the Mexican media and Mexican fans have claimed for years, that the only way Mexico loses to US is because Mexico played bad. US fans are now echoing that too just to discredit a man they don't like. Which is fine. Just stay consistent and remember that any time US beats Mexico is not because US is better but because Mexico was just bad.
Nah, we watched it a few years ago. I have literally never seen my students as depressed and crushed as they were watching El Tri 2021-2023, 2024 seemed like they started waking up. It will still take them years to come fully online, they let their developmental program stall out for too long, I don't view them winning a Gold Cup, or Nations League as really demonstrable of anything other than that the US is playing like hot garbage right now, El Tri is still pretty bad, but with Jimenez back, that's been a HUGE catalyst to their play. They hadn't had a functioning effective striker at all from '19-'23. Now they do, and Santi if he puts it together at the national team level will only add to it.
The 2018-2022 Mexico was a good Mexico which fell apart just in time for the World Cup. Since then they've been struggling to get new talent to replace their aging players.
You know there are people on the planet who are not USMNT fans right? Why would pundits and media and Mexico fans and other people say this is the "worst Mexico ever"? Just to "discredit Berhalter"? Why do they care so much about that? There are all kinds of graphics showing where Mexico's starting XI guys used to play club ball compared to where they do now. People say Alex Zendejas would easily walk into the current Mexico team, he doesn't get called up to the USMNT and literally no one cares. Herculez Gomez has argued that Alex Zendejas is the best player in LigaMX right now, or best field player if that Mexican GK is first, when most of the Mexican national team currently plays in LigaMX. Is he saying that about Zendejas in the year 2025 just to make Gregg Berhalter look bad? WHAT??? What if not everything is about Gregg Berhalter though, have you even considered that possibility?
So you all mean that USMNT can only win if Mexico is down, right? It was strange that USMNT won so many tournaments consecutively and only explanation we can come up with is because Mexico is bad not because US is better. The times USMNT won a Gold Cup was because Mexico sent a "B team" cause their main team was playing Confederations Cup. USMNT isn't better than Mexico and never will be unless Mexico is going through some down time
What are you even saying? The US is better than Mexico and has been beating Mexico because the former's player pool is pretty stacked while the latter's player pool is in a really bad state. How hard is that to understand? Did you forget what you were arguing? You went from the USMNT players aren't good don't blame Poch for losing blame the players, to people are only saying Mexico players are bad to avoid praising Gregg Berhalter, to people are only saying Mexico is bad so they don't have to acknowledge that the USMNT is actually good...
If Mexico is so good right now which current Mexico players are you afraid of besides the one aging guy who ALMOST DIED?
I agreed with you guys. Worst Mexico ever. It's the only way we can win when they go through a player crisis which is rare honestly. So what's the issue now?
Right but that was due to the relative success of the US. What about them scraping their way to the Intercontinental playoffs in 2014? It seems like there's a "is this the worst Mexican team ever?" debate about every ten years.