The reality is that it changed because big European teams didn't want to sign 23 year-olds (college grads) for their potential. By the late 00s MLS teams (primarily the Metrostars/Red Bulls) started producing their own players. Robinson and Ferreira earn Championship level salaries. Their salaries aren't competitive with the top 4 leagues + PSG, but they are too much for the secondary European leagues like Eredivisie, Primeira Belgian Pro and SPL. Ferreira would probably have been offered under a $1M by Celtic or Feyenoord but he chose financial security. More of a fuzzy line than a period. Some might be good enough, we won't know unless they go. If by "Europe" when you mean the top 5 or 6 leagues and a dozen other clubs that qualify for the Champions League regularly you're probably correct.
i dont know, we cant apply hindsight logic all willy nilly. would mcglynn and luna play in 02 mls, or would they be making like 11k a year watching ramos and harkes play? assuming they had skipped college. not a ton of teenagers got chances, and those who did were physical standouts and/or ynt players- where would they have fit with that era of youth players from 98-02? and sure, 28 and 30 yo miles and roldan would play, but would they have grown and developed into those players? would their 18 and 20 yo versions have played? its hard enough comparing guys now in mls to the colaship to la liga. we (mls) are pre-teens at best, against leagues solidly a century older. mls has come so far, so fast but still, i think we (as a fanbase) see us as "pulling even" a little prematurely. we are also fundamentally different from most of europe/the rest of the world, in calendar, single entity, pro-rel, some franchises are under 4, 5 years old. franchises and clubs are fundamentally different... im just kinda listing reasons its hard to compare things now. having a pair of celtic (circa 02) cbs would be a big ass deal, though
Isn't it grand? To bring it back it does sort of describe the level of talent level Poch has to work with.
We dont have a collective level of quality where we can presume that all we need do is play intelligently conserve energy and still win handily against most teams.Against top 25* NTs we will have to be at our peak AND count on a solid defensive/goalkeeping performance. *I meant to type15,but screw it 25 it is.
Europe is a broad thing though. CCV and Trusty playing in Scotland is not really particularly different from playing in MLS. Nor is the Championship much different from MLS at this point.
Well @Pegasus Greece were brilliantly coached by Otto Rehhagel in 2002 who had them playing disciplined soccer, man marking the ass off their opponents.
Yes. It wasn't their overall 'talent', it was their overall commitment to defending at all times and taking their chances on the counter.
Too bad Poch doesn't have better players than previous USMNT coaches, instead he's stuck starting scrubs like Tim Weah who then scores against Real Madrid at the Bernabeu like a week later. 4 Americans have scored a goal in the UEFA Champions League for multiple clubs. 🇺🇸🔘 DaMarcus Beasley (PSV 🇳🇱, Rangers 🏴)🔘 Christian Pulisic (Dortmund 🇩🇪, Chelsea 🏴, Milan 🇮🇹)🔘 Weston McKennie (Schalke 🇩🇪, Juventus 🇮🇹)🔘 Tim Weah (Juventus 🇮🇹, Marseille 🇫🇷)[@PaulCarr] pic.twitter.com/JmHeaGEwxf— USMNT Otaku 🇺🇸 (@USMNTOtaku) September 17, 2025
Japan with 0 goals in the window... this same guy was saying even beforehand that Japan hasn't had a good performance since October vs Saudi Arabia so almost a year ago.. he seems to pay attention to Japan and calls it their "C team", "a full squad of randoms who have never played together before"... also notable that over their last 6 games (Saudi x 2, Australia x2, Mexico, US) Japan have only scored 2 goals from open play! Something to consider before going all in on 3 CBs based on one result.
I mostly agree as a general observation. There is no difference making talent coming from MLS to the NT for the most part. Yes we have players who initially started in MLS/academies and then moved up the pyramid but we can't turn to MLS for what would be a top 10-15 player or so and a key contributor to a full strength NT roster. Even a guy like Luna is likely a late sub option for the full team at best. And as much as I like him I'm not sure I would include him on a 23 man roster if everyone is healthy. What clouds or development failures further and is often ignored is how much we rely on foreign developed players. For a true picture of our development one would need to remove Dest, Robinson, Tillman, Balo, Johnny, Musah, from the discussion. How much worse would a first choice XI look without Dest, Jedi, Tillman and Balo? Many would argue outside Pulisic that Dest and Jedi are the 2nd and 3rd most important to the success of the team. Many would also argue Dest, Jedi, Tillman and Balo are 4 of our top 6-7 players. And I would draw comparisons to a country like Japan where the significant majority of their NT and exports played in the J League and first developed there. Or what you see in the Bra/Arg leagues. So in taking the convo further, one would need to acknowledge Pulisic did not come from MLS, and while they had early ties to one extent or another, Weah moved to France at 14, Puli to Germany just before turning 16, Gio moved to Germany at 17. The last point I would make is while MLS has certainly improved a substantial amount, much of that as it comes to NT discussion, both our NT and others, is thru importing foreign players. Most of the better players in MLS are foreign. That is a difference I don't see anyone mentioning when comparing the current version to the early 2000's. There was far more American representation as the elite players in the league back then. Why is why the generic MLS v Europe debate is stupid. Europe has a wide spectrum of leagues/levels. "Europe" as a descriptor in and of itself offers little to an intelligent conversation. Same as "MLS". Especially when so much of the better talent is imported, which of course means international level players can play in MLS. Which is too often conflated with discussion about our top 23.
This is a bit misleading as I believe he played for a team that played in the league MLS academy teams played in back then and the team he would have played for was either very new or not yet around. I mean Philly has had another Pulisic level talent (so far) already and they are as good as any other US club at developing talent.
@gogorath had a post two pages back discussing our needs for backups. Assuming we just run out Badge FC and everyone is healthy (knock on wood) we have 10 starting field players that are from top 5 league. Even then, you can't just run those guys to the ground. There needs to be backup and the only position where we have plenty of top 5 backups is at CM. Regarding Luna. To my eye he was as noticeable as Tillman in the GC and he has been as good as Aaronson ever has been for us. Late sub option at best is underrating him. Even assuming that Reyna gets back into shape, Luna can still be a spot starter and since he is our youngest AM he could improve enough to be the actual starter. That said, there's a lot of competition including a renewed Zendejas so he could also be left out. It's hard to say. Similar to CF. There's a lot of guys but no clear starter.
I don't think that there is any question that the Japan team in the September window was a B/C team due to injuries and certainly sitting 10? starters from the v Mexico match meant that the US faced a C team.
side note question: when did people begin using the term badge fc? I don't recall seeing it used so widely until this year.
I don’t want to get into a debate on Luna as that wasn’t the focus of my post. But I have him behind Tillman and Gio in a healthy full team. Which directly correlates to a sub option at best in a healthy 23. Situationally Zendejas and BA potentially as well. It would depend on the specific game. My definition is if there was a R16 knockout game tonight and we had a fully healthy team would Luna be in the XI. No. Would he sub on. Potentially.
It's probably existed as a term for some time, but it especially came into vogue over the course of this cycle. After the so-called "golden generation" of Euro-based players who were selected primarily based on club pedigree stepped on a rake in Copa America and then performed even worse in March, the term "Badge FC" became popularized to describe a squad selected primarily based on where they play rather than how they play.
Interesting stuff. Is "Badge FC" aimed at a player like Jovan Kirovski, who signed at big clubs and got a bunch of caps in spite of never being very good? Or is it more for a player like Weston McKennie, who has legit talent but doesn't reliably play hard? Or something else?
Pulisic did play in the DA from an early age. I think he played for FC Delco. This doesn't have anything to do with him becoming great. He was trained by his dad who took him all over the place to get him exposure. Overall, the DA was a disaster for US player development. The "development" label was only there to feed the fantasies of high-paying parents. MLS academies are nowhere near as bad as this because they're not driven by pay-to-play. But from what I've seen, the quality of coaching is uneven, at best. What's happening in Philly is good but very different from most other franchises.