News: Fire Berhalter

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by bigredmachine, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    intermountain west
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wish I had a local MLS team. I would most definitely be a lot more into the league. I watch many games but the lack of investment into any particular team makes me an amateur talent scout at best. I just focus on individuals for stretches.
     
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  2. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well thought-out post. I agree and disagree with some parts. I think it's probably some combo of all three:
    1) Netherlands, top-to-bottom, (including coaching) are a notch above us. If you see how the elite teams have handled the 2nd tier teams in the first KO round, the US is not an outlier (and actually gave a more convincing performance than some others).
    2) Some players just laid an egg on the day. Arguably they were just really fatigued, but it's worth noting that some Dutch players played just as many minutes.
    3) In terms or readiness, there's the naivete of both the players and Berhalter himself; his/their ability to adjust to situations they just don't have experience with.

    I give Berhalter a little more credit than you in the sense that I don't think he's inherently inflexible; I chalk a bit of it up to inexperience. But I also think he's more hamstrung than people realize. I'm not sure, for example, we have the personnel to easily "downshift" into a more pragmatic style of play that might've benefitted us against the Netherlands. A lot of coaches would get outsmarted by van Gaal, but I also think it's fairly easy to adjust to our team. Everyone knows MMA is our strength, so once you set upon eliminating them from the match we just don't have a lot of alternatives.
     
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  3. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    West Ham has finished the last two seasons 6th and 7th in the EPL. Hull City spent the last 2 season in League 1 and finish 19th in the Championship. So no they aren't playing with a relegation spot on the line and I don't find it enjoyable to watch West Ham play team that they are significantly better than.
     
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  4. yeaunome

    yeaunome Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    its about losing a spot in the top division.

    lol.

    Insert any historically defensive bottom half premiership team instead of Hull and West ham. Are you being obtuse on purpose?

    Birmingham. Reading. Wigan. Stoke. etc. etc.
     
  5. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mean, I guess I'd care about that if I lived in one of those two places. But I don't, any more than I care about the result of a Seattle Sounders-Portland Timbers match.
     
  6. Fighting Illini

    Fighting Illini Member+

    Feb 6, 2014
    Chicago
    Because Gregg didn't call them up!

    Dike and Aaronson for Whoever and Weah. Boom, you're a get it to the flanks cross and setpiece team.

    Our plan B was doing the exact same thing just worse with less capable players.
     
  7. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Anyone who watched the qualifiers and follows our guys in Europe knew we're not that good, and the R16 was our ceiling. No way we were going to make QFs.

    Unless we get very lucky, considering what we have coming up the pipe, I'd be surprised if we make it past the R16 in '26.

    We're not a Top 8 NT in the world, no matter who is coaching.
     
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  8. adam tash

    adam tash BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    so pomykal has the same stats as musah? interesting didnt know that

    FWIW steph curry was passed on by 6 teams.

    Also - 70% of the teams in MLS passed on drafting Dempsey in 2004!!!! think about that before being so sure that there arent some good players not getting a chance in MLS.

    and

    the BEST thing MLS has going for itself is getting its good players out of its league as fast as possible so that they can actually develop lol.....it is better than it was....but that's hardly any reason to include the league in the USMNT

    and also I dont think anyone who doesnt like MLS players on the USMNT actually is against the league itself....simply against using players from that league preemptively and without discretion.
     
  9. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You literally picked the example of teams not me. And picking those two teams as a match up makes me think you don't actually watch much EPL either. I myself watch much more EPL than MLS, but I watch some of MLS more to try and watch the up and coming potential USMNT players.
     
  10. yeaunome

    yeaunome Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I dont think this makes the point you want it to...
     
  11. yeaunome

    yeaunome Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    You havent watched the EPL long then rofl.
     
  12. Fighting Illini

    Fighting Illini Member+

    Feb 6, 2014
    Chicago
    If MLS could scale the environment and the stakes of El Trafico, it would be in a totally different position.

    What the Premier League has it has up and down the table in every round of the season. There are some games that are elevated, sure, just based on the size of clubs and quality involved in a Manchester Derby or whatever. And then the real leverage games pop up around the business end of the season. But games that don't really matter are pretty rare, whereas they are the vast majority of MLS' inventory.
     
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  13. adam tash

    adam tash BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    the us players form and quality fluctuates wildly

    just happened that the WC happened at a time when players like brooks reyna, ldlt, mckennie, dest, pulisic, richards, jedi were at a low....theyve all been in much better form in recent seasons/times...its a snapshot

    ream, ccv, adams, sargent turner were in good form or better form relative to recent times....but that wasnt nearly enough to compensate for the overall poor FORM of most of the squad at this point in time

    and it is FORM

    not class


    youre wrong that they arent good players....but a lot of them are in a bad moment right now, unfortunately
     
  14. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Clearly longer than you have the way you talk about different teams.
     
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  15. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And indeed the Dutch reportedly wanted to hire him for the equivalent position with their federation.
     
  16. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I think Haji was a huge miss and think Vazquez/Mihaelovic deserved a shot.

    Seems like there is more than talent evaluation going here. We have two MLS examples that basically occurred because Berhalter shut down shop in June. Mihaelovic missed out do to injury and Berhalter already had five forwards with no clear depth chart.

    Are there any other MLS players that didn't get a shot or were slow to being implemented?

    He left Pepi, Pefok, Brooks, and Steffen at home. He was slow to implement Sargent, Weah, Robinson, and CCV. He preferred Lletget and Acosta over Musah in the NL. He preferred Morris, Ferreira, and Acosta over Reyna at the damn WC.

    Are there any other Euro based guys that anybody thinks got too many minutes besides Boyd and Wright. The list of MLS players is very long.

    There is an example or two of an MLS guy not getting a shot and Euro guy getting too many minutes, but the trend is that sub par MLS guy got time over and over again at the expense of more talented players.
     
  17. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't care about the results of an LA Kings v. San Jose Sharks game
    I don't care about the results of a Seattle Mariners v. Anaheim Angels game
    I don't care about what happens in a Boise State v. Wyoming game
    And so on

    It's odd to me to care about a game involving teams that you have no connection to. But, you do you.
     
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  18. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm trying to think of what influence MLS has over the USMNT these days, and I'm drawing a blank.
     
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  19. Fighting Illini

    Fighting Illini Member+

    Feb 6, 2014
    Chicago
    But like Haji and Mihailovic are kind of exceptions that prove the rule, right?

    There are coaches in every sport that have a bias toward low-talent, low-upside try hards. It's just part of coach-brain.

    In US Soccer, that is naturally going to draw a distinction that TENDS to put MLS players on one side, and European players on the other, just because less technically gifted grinders aren't likely to find options in Europe, they get sorted out of the mix and are stuck with MLS.

    But Mihailovic is a brilliant but mercurial and flighty talent, whereas Wright is a grindy lunchpail mediocrity. Their status under Gregg was sorted by the type of player they were, not the league they played in.
     
  20. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    We only have two players whose individual technique for their position wouldn't be out of place in a QF match: Pulisic and Reyna.

    And neither is considered "World Class" by anyone.

    Compare our pool to that of teams making the QFs. Morocco had some luck, but they have at least five players (Hakimi, Mazraoui, Ziyech, Amrabat, Bounou) at the level of our best two, and four of them (Ziyech is the one out) playing more consistently than Puli or the often-injured Reyna.
     
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  21. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    This is probably accurate. I usually assume that a USMNT coach must have an intimate knowledge of the player pool, but (a) that's what Earnie is for and (ii) we need to focus on maximizing 2026, so if you're 17 or 18 or so now then, well, you're probably not gonna be ready for 2026 unless you're Mbappe or something. So we can, and maybe should, get a coach that one would assume would know more about tactics than any mere American.

    (Reminiscences about Gansler-Bora-Sampson cut for extreme boringness)

    Note the goal differential

    Note the result of our last game in the group

    Note who we were playing in our last game in the group

    Then go back and look at the goal differential again

    EDIT - in fact, here, let me help you. 2022 FIFA World Cup qualification – CONCACAF Third Round - Wikipedia
     
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  22. Fighting Illini

    Fighting Illini Member+

    Feb 6, 2014
    Chicago
    My guy, no one on earth would choose Amrabat over McKennie, and I choose those two because Tottenham is apparently sizing up that very choice in January.

    (Though to be fair Amrabat was out of this world in that Spain game, and if this were 1994 he'd be at Man City immediately. It's not 1994.)
     
  23. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Love Wes and he's improved a lot, but in individual technique, he still lacks.

    The MMA midfield is excellent because it's more than the sum of its parts, but if the Spuds pick McKennie they'll live to regret it --and so will I, knowing how obnoxious their fans are.
     
  24. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Exceptions don't prove rules.

    Wright isn't grind, lunch pail at all.

    Robinson is much more of a grinder than Lovitz. Sargent, Weah, and CCV are all extremely high work rate players.

    I do believe some of what you are saying. Berhalter knows he needs the the top euro guys and has chosen that he wants to fill out the team with MLS grinders. That isn't unconscious though. He never gave euro guys a shot at those roles. It still seems like a player profile coach with different criteria for euro based guys than MLS.
     
  25. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Wow... this is a bit much, even for you.

    There is nothing irrational about it and MLS has a lot to do with it.
     
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