News: Fire Berhalter

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by bigredmachine, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then you’re not paying attention. As one example, I looked at the roster for a friendly against Jamaica in 2019 here in DC that I went to. 7 of the starts for that game were MLS players. You can probably find a number of examples like that all over this cycle.

    Or do you think Berhalter is having all the European players haul themselves to a low importance game against Cuba or whatever?
     
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  2. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Whatever you think of MLS, it isn't stopping an elite young American from going out there, showing high level quality and getting bought....if you're of the opinion you want our best moving to top leagues.

    Mihailovic was able to play and excel as one of the league's best. Maybe not an elite American but still good with upside.

    Vazquez was able to play and excel. Should be in the NT.

    And MLS isn't the problem as to why Pomykal and Parks haven't taken the next step in their careers. For all the talk about a dude like Pomykal who I rated highly at one point, he and his injuries are the reason he hasn't leveled up.

    For a couple decades now talented young Americans displayed their quality and moved on. Dempsey, Bradley, Holden, DMB, to name a few to Adams and Aaronson more recently. There was obviously Landon's to and fro and all the Ream/Cameron types between.

    People have a habit of looking at relatively mediocre talent and blaming the league for it not maturing. We also have a bunch of mediocre talent in Europe which hasn't matured.

    The problem remains we still have shallow player pool lacking depth of quality. And most players don't make it to the top no matter where they play. The problem isn't we have half a dozen young Dempseys in MLS glued to the bench not getting their shot. The problem is we don't have a young Dempsey in MLS.

    Pomykal isn't a viable MMA alternative because he's not nearly good enough. 0 goals and 2 assists in 35 matches last season is whose fault exactly? Not playing enough?? He doesn't even register as a top MLS player. It's not because FCD or MLS ruined him. And if he were to theoretically sign with a Bund club in all likelihood he's riding the pine. He's not suddenly some viable alternative to Musah.

    I mean c'mon, the level in MLS dictates that high level quality will be apparent almost immediately. And the league is heavily scouted. Talented players step on the pitch in leagues all across the world and show their quality. Same with other sports. Steph Curry didn't go to Kentucky or Duke. He went to Davidson. Talent is talent.
     
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  3. wasdykec

    wasdykec Member

    May 6, 2002
    Jax, Florida
    I was referring to bach16857fan or whatever their name is. If I tagged you it was a mistake.
     
  4. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    First off, I dont like you but am sorry you paid money to watch that crap.

    Second, you can't really be serious? That was Berhalter two thirds MLS players phase. It had nothing to do with Euro team/players not wanting to be there. That was one of two games prior to the GC and was clearly players lower down the depth chart. The problem was that Euro based players didn't have a spot on that part of the depth chart. There were plenty of Euro based players who would have happily played in that game.
     
  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Sure I guess. How do you explain Ferreira over Pepi? What message does that send to players? Does talent even play into roster decisions? If it does, the requirement for Euro based players is significantly higher. This whole culture crap is very slippery slope.
     
  6. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm really trying to parse your position, because it's so incoherent. You claim Berhalter loves MLS players, but when people show you that he uses European players for important games, you ignore that.

    Then, people show you evidence he uses MLS players much more for less important games, you interpret that as a dig against European players because, in your mind, European players were beating down the door to fly 8 hours for a meaningless mid-week friendly (spoiler alert: they weren't).

    You don't really have any complaint, other than a general dislike of Berhalter. Seriously, show us on this doll where Gregg touched you.
     
  7. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How would you explain Haji over Vazquez? Despite his accidental wonder goal.

    Seems more talent evaluation to me.

    Jesus deserved to be called into the NT, maybe not for the WC. But he was also misused. Another issue. He's not a target #9.

    Pepi should have gone. I also think Mihailovic deserved a serious look.

    Of course talent plays into decisions. Adams, McKennie, Musah, Puli and Dest are locks for a reason.

    But once you get down to the Morris and Luca debates, you're no longer talking about elite talent. And that's either side of the pond.
     
  8. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mean, that's the argument right? Did Berhalter do the best with what he had or did he under-utilize his talent? For me, it's a little of column A and a little of column B.

    But first -- this narrative about Berhalter running his guys into the ground. Here is a list of players who've played equal or more minutes to the most utilized American player (who was Antonee Robinson):

    (bolded played MORE minutes)
    Hakim Ziyech
    Luka Modric
    Sergio Busquets
    Achraf Hakimi

    Daley Blind
    Denzel Dumfries
    Granit Xhaka
    Son Heung-Min
    Lionel Messi
    Nicolas Otamendi

    Frenkie de Jong played, like, 6 minutes fewer than Tyler Adams, who had a disaster of a game. So I mean -- is it taken for granted that our players should've totally collapsed after playing 4 matches in a row?
     
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  9. Fighting Illini

    Fighting Illini Member+

    Feb 6, 2014
    Chicago
    Everyone is so eager to make it an MLS thing, but at the end of the day the story is just that Gregg didn't reliably put his best guys on the field throughout the cycle, and to the extent it got better as the World Cup approached, it's mostly because a core group of players got so good at their clubs they made themselves undroppable for the national team.

    That's not universal. Gregg handled Pulisic's crater in form fairly gracefully I thought. His rigid tactical commitments led him to reach for and trust the McKennie Adams Musah midfield in a way other managers might not have and that was a key to our success even if it was a happy coincidence.

    But as we start a new cycle we go back to the critical aspect of the job being working through the player pool and assessing potential options, and Gregg is really bad at that.
     
  10. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's an internet opinion. It assumes that large groups of would-be soccer fans choose a league to follow based on abstract political reasons and not because of, you know, actual soccer matches.

    Like, there are lots of people that support MLS clubs that don't think MLS is perfect, or don't like the analysts or whatever. Heck, there are people that have issues with the leadership of their own clubs (as a Galaxy fan, I can attest to that; I bet Timbers fans would, too). That really has nothing to do with supporting a soccer team. But people hating a sports league they don't actually support a team in? I can think of few things more irrelevant than that.
     
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  11. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    I don't think someone unhappy with Berhalter would tolerate an American coach - even Cherundolo or Curtin. And I don't think the USSF is going to hire an international coach, although if - I forget who I'm quoting - Deschamps is available? Oh mais oui. But I don't think Didi will be available.

    LOL - yea, verily, LMAO and ROFL - at the idea in that Twitter thread that Lopetegui would have been the answer. His record speaks - nay, stands on the table and screams - for itself.

    I am curious as to where people get the idea that Earnie Stewart is a spineless yes-man willing to nuke his reputation to satisfy the Berhalter Crime Family. You would think his Dutch and USMNT reputation would put him above the more knee-jerk criticism, and that if he thinks Berhalter is the guy then Berhalter's probably the guy.

    Quick reminder that Berhalter coached the Crew while Precourt was trying to Austinize them. Keeping that team together, let alone playing acceptably, was a very tall order, and I think there's a reason Crew fans think highly of him.

    This is absolutely not what happened, and it doesn't take the Paleontology Department of the University of California at Berkeley to uncover evidence proving this.

    I think Nike felt and applied some pressure here. There was mainstream demand for significant changes. I think it was also Gulati who largely landed 2026, Cordeiro turned out to be kind of a total dumbass.

    Meant to quote Roger here - and whoever first said that we lost the Netherlands game when Wales equalized. Yeah, this was probably the biggest proximate factor. Having Qatar as the third game was like having the third game off. Beating Wales - or, of course, England - would have allowed us to similarly half-ass Iran, give everyone a good rest and cup of cheer, and prepare for either the Netherlands or Senegal. Not to mention that Pulisic doesn't get hurt, because Iran is dead in the water and we're through so why risk the jewels?

    We can see what's happening with teams that had to work to get in the Round of 16 (Spain, Japan, us, of course) and those who skipped through merrily (France, Brazil, Portugal, England of course).
     
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  12. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    People who "prefer watching the EPL" usually only watch games like City vs. Liverpool and such.

    They're casual fans, whose opinion barely carries any more weight than that of those who only watch soccer once every four years.
     
  13. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    I agree with this to some extent, but I think there is a key difference between the minutes the US guys played and those listed and they're primarily around the US style of play. We lean heavily on our midfield to both defend and move the ball forward and the expectation is constant running, constant pressure and providing a physical presence for 90. There are real reasons why we see Americans all over those lists of players who cover the most ground while better teams have very few. Lots of players can play 2 a week and important players do this regularly with clubs playing in Champions League midweek and league games on the weekend. They do it for much longer stretches than the time we were in the World Cup. But, they don't generally play the type of all running all the time way that our guys play. So, I don't think it is because our guys played too many minutes, but more because of the physical toll of how we play, especially for our midfielders. And then with McKennie he was just coming back from injury and not fully fit.
     
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  14. Fighting Illini

    Fighting Illini Member+

    Feb 6, 2014
    Chicago
    To give voice to that, I think it is the federation's responsibility to sincerely and openly seek and assess options outside the US for this job for this cycle, and I am certain those options would be numerous and highly qualified because of the one-of-a-kind appeal of leading this nascent group of players into a Copa America then a home World Cup.

    It may nonetheless be that that sincere assessment leads to someone like Curtin or Cherundolo, who are good coaches who dueled in one hell of an MLS Cup Final between two really well set up teams, but who are more lightly qualified than other potential options.

    It would be the federation's responsibility in that instance to be candid about that and to offer a sensible explanation why they made that choice. I'd probably roll my eyes and grumble a bit at another MLS coach, but I am open to being convinced to the winner of a real recruitment process that isn't a stitch-up.

    Two sidebars to that: if ability to work within the USSF's structure and culture culls the pool down to a handful of domestic candidates as workable choices, then the structure and culture suck and must change. And secondly, if Berhalter is the answer at the end of a real process, they just aren't taking second cycle problems seriously and had better be prepared to fire him before 2026 if it's clear we need to do so.
     
  15. yeaunome

    yeaunome Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #2490 yeaunome, Dec 7, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2022
    impossible to find on tv to start with.
    awful technical play
    awful announcers
    awful fans(sorry its true)
    the lack of pro/rel is cringe
    its still a 3rd rate league
    the same reason i dont watch the turkish league, or the J league
     
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  16. yeaunome

    yeaunome Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    id rather watch Hull City vs West Ham than LAG v LAFC or any other MLS rivalry you would prefer to insert.
     
  17. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I guess this is why I appear to some to be so fixated on 2019. People like you try to just make shit up.

    Berhalter picked a core of guys from the 2019 January camp and supplemented it with a small amount of Euro based guys in March. That roster was roughly two thirds MLS players. He continued in that way through year slowly replacing MLS guys with other MLS guys. After quarantine, he started getting a little more serious about his selection.

    Your claim that euro guys dint want to participate is utter nonsense. He held combined camp with the u23s prior to the Jamaica friendly that included 12 euro based guys who wanted to fly over just to have a chance to play in a friendly. Pulisic, Boyd, and Mckennie joined for friendlies or GC. Fifteen players of varying abilities were willing to make the trip. I am guessing that was all that was invited.

    Yes, 2019 was an actual joke. Now provide an actual example.

    GOALKEEPERS (3): JT Marcinkowski (San Jose Earthquakes), Andrew Thomas (Stanford Cardinal), Justin Vom Steeg (LA Galaxy)

    DEFENDERS (8): Kyle Duncan (New York Red Bulls), Cameron Carter-Vickers (Tottenham Hotspur), Marlon Fossey (Fulham), Omar Gonzalez (Atlas), Andrew Gutman (Charlotte Independence), Matt Miazga (Chelsea), Tim Ream (Fulham), Antonee Robinson (Everton)

    MIDFIELDERS (4): Duane Holmes (Derby County), Emerson Hyndman (AFC Bournemouth), Keaton Parks (New York City FC), Eryk Williamson (Portland Timbers)

    FORWARDS (6): Jonathan Amon (FC Nordsjælland), Luca de la Torre (Fulham), Joe Gyau (MSV Duisburg), Josh Perez (Los Angeles Football Club), Josh Sargent (Werder Bremen); Haji Wright (Schalke 04)
     
  18. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well given that many of the games were previously on ESPN and Fox they were fairly easy to find on TV. And now they'll be on apple.

    Not going to argue with the other points as I understand MLS MLS not being for someone, I just don't understand why that would cause you to hate the league versus just being indifferent to it.
     
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  19. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mean I think LA Galaxy vs LAFC is a much more interesting game than West Ham vs Hull City, but I don't begrudge your choices if you find the latter more interesting. To each their own. I just don't understand hating the first.
     
  20. yeaunome

    yeaunome Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Because it has faaaaarrr too much damn influence on my first love in soccer. the usmnt.
     
  21. yeaunome

    yeaunome Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Any time West ham and Hull city play, a relegation spot is on the line. The 'whose the best team in this major metropolitan area' is hollywood narrated nonsense.
     
  22. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hating MLS because you think it has too much influence on the USMNT in your opinion is somewhat irrational a position and has nothing to do with MLS itself. Meanwhile US Soccer and MLS have never had more separate a relationship than they do currently.
     
  23. Fighting Illini

    Fighting Illini Member+

    Feb 6, 2014
    Chicago
    Yes, local derbies, famously not relevant in an authentic European soccer context.
     
  24. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    upload_2022-12-7_13-49-32.png
     
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  25. yeaunome

    yeaunome Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Sure.

    And Charles Woodson deserved the Heisman over Manning.

    lol.
     

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