Finally an alternative to McBride

I watched the clips ESPN put on that show about the USWNT from when they played UVA. It showed one part where a woman and one of the boys were running at a full sprint for a ball, with the man starting a foot or two behind the women in the clip. In the 2-4 seconds it showed the guy just completely blew by her, rounding her and beating her to the ball. That's the fundamental difference between men and women. Any ball that's a footrace to get to, Wambach would lose it in a men's game. She's even slow-of-foot for the women's game.

Now, if she had been a he, he'd probably be one of our more promising prospects.

That said, it just might be interesting if they capped her against one of the minnow teams. I'd love to see that just to see how it went.

 

I think he might be playing withdrawn forward or center mid for a world-class club in Europe.

Re: Abby Wambach ... meet the girls from Deutschland.

Re: Nate Jaqua ... ask the LA Gal defenders if he can win a header ala McBride. Nate needs PT and is unfortunately (for him) behind Razov and Damani on Fire depth chart.

 

*lol* Agoos may be slow by MENS international standards, but I'm willing to put he could out run 90% of men in a 40 yard dash.

 

Originally posted by RevPOWA:
"I WHOLE HEARTEDLY AGREE!!!

It really is frustrating to see the Nats lose against some soccer powerhouse... Those countries have and always will have their country's BEST athletes playing soccer."

That's what I'm talking about!!! We'd stopm 'em. If the next Shaq is a Center Forward, or the next Dennis Rodman is a Central Defender, or the next it goes on and on and on...
I posted the following in the England National Team forum. I was not trolling, the discussion started over England being overated and I was defending the Lions. And then somebody slagged the USMNT...

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Originally posted by sendorange:
"So the media won't be as negative or apathetic as in somewhere like the US, where everybody knows the national team are no-hopers and thus coverage is reflected as such."

Divingheader replies:
I know this is England forum, I know I shouldn't take the bait, I know, I know... Oh hell, here goes.
In the US soccer is a minor sport. At best 5th behind baseball, american footballl, basketball, and even hockey. Maybe even 7th if you figure college basketball and college football as seperate entities. That is why the american media yawn over it, they only have so much space/time/money. Personally, I abhor this situation, but can only continue to try and alter it by remaining an active fan. In England, for instance, the 7th biggest sport is Watercoloring Seascapes at Exmouth; France's 4th most popular sport is baiting the USA an the UN, and in Brazil the #2 sport is Carnival. Just kidding, but you get the picture.

Anyway, it is not becuase the USA is a "no hoper". The USA is up and coming. The emergence of Landon Donovan, DaMarcus Beasley and now Freddie Adu as recognizable media faces/personalities in the US is going to result in a lot of good young atheletes choosing soccer instead of one of the more (traditionally) monied sports for their future. So take a moment to look over your shoulder at the USA while you still can from South America or Europe, cause in ten years all your gonna be able to see is their heels thru the dust cloud up ahead.

In Europe/SA, there is much less competition for the sporting attention span. Almost all the really small resources (compared to the USAs economy, population, and disposable money) these areas have are poured into football. For real now, "No Hope" is what any other country has when the USA starts concentrating its resources (not that it does so as a concious act, mostly).

And to revert to strickly being a fan, the USA has a better "program" than most nations. We have a good coach, who has been in the job for more than 4 years and is sure to be there thru Germany '06. Our top pro league (there is more than one) supports the national team, freely releasing players for call-ups. We have won our Federation tournament 2 times in the last 12 years. And made the quarterfinals at the last WC. In the USA the National Team is something to a fan of, not an inconvienence. That spells trouble for y'all over there.
As for Euro2004, I like the USAs chances of easily advancing if they were in Groups 1, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, or 10. Since that can't happen, I'll have to wait for Germany '06, where I hope to buy y'all a beer or two. Cheers."

 

Please stop yearning for the Michael Vicks and Michael Jordans to play soccer. The sport demands a different kind of athlete. Quickness is relative. Neither of the above is as quick as DMB. The athletes who would help soccer in this country are the ones deemed too small/short to play football/basketball. They may be every bit as athletic as Jordan or Vick, but at 5'-6" or 5'-8" they have little hope of playing professionally. There are lots of them on college teams.

As far as a women playing on the USMNT; why? The simple fact is that no woman is or has been good enough to make the team. Michelle Akers was voted the best woman player of the century. I played against her on a couple of occasions. She was good. Good enough to play on my Div. I college team. But nobody on my team was good enough to play for the USMNT. She wasn't nearly as good as former USMNT players Des Armstrong or Bruce Murray, two guys I played with as a youth.

 

Jordan was never really famous for his speed, I'll agree with you there. But there is no way you're going to tell me that Beasley is faster than Vick. They're both extremely fast. But I really don't think that Beasley is faster. They're roughly comparable, but if I had to bet on a 40-yard dash between them, my money would be on Vick. And if you're defining "quick" not as pure speed but also agility and acceleration, Vick is definitely better. Now this is partly because soccer doesn't call for skills like you'd see in a 70-yard Vick TD scramble where he makes five guys miss, but I think Vick is quicker than Beasley.

If anybody has any 40 times on DMB, I'd like to hear it. Vick ran a 4.25 in college and is probably faster than that now. Granted, you can make some arguments about the validity of those times, but it still makes him one of the fastest players in the NFL.

 

We'd have a tall Cobi.

Why in hell do people think that people who run fast and are big will necessarily be great soccer players? I don't get it.

 

beasley is dante hall...

that's the difference...

vick isn't hall, over 40 yards vick has great speed...

it's the continual change of directions over say, 10-20 yards which is more relevant to soccer...

 

Speed

I love how some of you guys argue that speed isn't important, that it's about soccer skill.

Looked at European soccer lately? The African descent players are taking over European soccer. Maybe half the top forwards in Europe these days are black -- Kluivert, Henry, Trezeguet, Larsson, that Polish guy, that German guy, the 19 year old at Milan, Anelka, and so forth and so on.

Why? Because they're fast as hell.

If Michael Vick had grown up in England, you'd probably be watching him score goals in EPL.

Sure, this world's Michael Vick (as opposed to the alternate reality Vick with the English accent) can't play soccer worth a damn. But if we could start raising guys like that with a round ball at their feet, we'd like the results.

 

DMB juking and out-running other soccer players is much different than Vick juking and out-running linebackers. I think Vick is great and love watching his highlights on ESPN. But he plays a game totally different than DMB. I do get a little tired of posters saying, "If only (Fill in star athelete from NBA, NFL, etc.) played soccer. Then the US would be great!"

The US has pulled good jocks from other sports. Freidel and Howard were good b-ballers, and Boca played football. Would they have made it to the NBA or the NFL? Impossible to say. Just like it's impossible to say if Vick would have made a team in MLS.

 

Well, I'm not sure I really agree with this whole 'they went to different sports' argument.

I think the main reason is that we, Americans, tend to put our big folks back on defense. Our defense has, generally, been on the big side. I think the tide is changing on this and big forwards will start to turn up.

 

Actually Bocanegra had no NFL career. He was too small to play linebacker and too slow to play defensive back. He knew it, and it was one of the reasons (he's been quoted on this) he quit and concentrated on soccer.

Not getting the best athletes certainly is a disadvantage, but it's not the only one.

 

Agreed. This thread surfaces every few months. It's packed full of fallacies. Ever notice that athletes don't say "aw, that sport's easy"? No, because they know being good at any one sport is incredibly difficult. That's something boneheaded sports fans and writers think.

Babe Ruth couldn't have played high school basketball. Any NBA center would probably have his tibias broken if he hit a line as a running back. An NFL defensive end wouldn't be able to get around a tennis court well enough to play college tennis. Look at Jordan -- an incomparable basketball player was a substandard minor league baseball player (a sport he'd played) when the pitchers were pitching to him. Finding a two sport athlete is incredibly difficult (Sanders, Ward, etc.), because each sport requires different body types -- and these are sports that get plenty of attention and coverage.

Anyone ever play competitive with big (i.e., NFL linebacker sized) guys? These guys have serious knee troubles and are foul magnets because they can't move their bodies enough to react to fakes and take out the dribbler. How about guys over 6'5? Not coordinated enough below the waist. Every sport's different and has different requirements of its players.

Does anyone here think Maradona could've played ANY sport but soccer?

 

I think Allen Iverson would make a good soccer player. He does have a great combo of speed and quickness and if he was a soccer player he would have decent size.

 

I don't but the 'If Only Blank Played Soccer...".

However I think that starting right about now, young sports stars in the USA are starting to see it as possible and worthwhile to make soccer a career. Beasley is huge for the sport in that way. Donovan too. Also Convey. These guys are playing at the World Level as teens. And earning huge bucks when compared to the other sport atheletes in their age group, who are almost all prisoners of the NCAA and have to have their meals provided by their school. And Adu, paid a million bucks as a 14 year old. All the kids play soccer, and now they can see a reason to keep playing.

As the USMNT continues to evolve and look a little more like a cross section of America, rather than a cross section of North Jersey or a grad team from St Louis or UVA, the USMNT will truely start to dominate. Its only going to take maybe 4 or 5 atheletes who could have been Vick, Jordan, or Iverson to choose soccer as thier sport at say the middle school level (12 to 14) and the USA is going to start shredding the world.

 

Re: again back to the real point

Role player? If by "Role Player" you mean leading the team in points, tied for team lead in goals scored in 600 minutes and 7 starts fewer than the other player, then you are right, he is a role player.

If that's not your definition of role player, you are fcking clueless.

 

Re: again back to the real point

You just killed your credibility right there. Edson Buddle is no role player. When he has been healthy this year, he has been just as dangerous as Twellman, Ruiz, or Razov. The difference between Edson and these players is that he is only 21 and he is already a more complete player then any of them. Watch some games before opening your mouth. What can you expect from somebody who mentions Wambach and USMNT is the same sentence.

 

Re: again back to the real point

Originally posted by cvilleva
"Chris Klein showed us what a we can expect at the international level from any MLS player who is not dominant."

There are a couple ways to look at this statement.

One- The statement makes no sense. Klien has been one of the most dominating players in MLS.

Two- The statement makes no sense. I thought Donovan was what we could expect at international level from a player that fails to dominate MLS.

 

Re: Speed

In order, Kluivert is Dutch, and his family is from Suriname as are many Dutch who are black. So, if you want to go way, way back, you might be able to technically argue his is African, but his parents are actually from South America if that helps.

Thierry Henry's parents are from the carribean (Antilles) but, as with Kluivert, I am assuming you are going way back to heritage neither of us know about other than melatonin content.

Trezuguet was born in France but his parents are Argentinian and he spent time growing up there as a youth, so you can't count him.

Henrik Larsson is swedish, born in Helsingborg. His parents are from the Cape Verde Islands, so I'm not sure if that qualifies him for your pidgeonhole of being African or not.

That Polish guy is Emmanuel Olisadebe, a Nigerian. BTW, in poland they used to throw bananas at him. Nice manners (it's not all stadiums, but it happens). He is one of the best players on their national team (scored 7 goals in WCQ and almost singlehandedly took them to Korea). He's not really Polish in any respect aside from citizenship. He was scouted by a couple of polish teams and made the move out of Nigeria, and plays on their Nats as he didn't figure to break into the Nigerian side.

That German guy is Gerald Asamoah (assuming we are talking about the same German guy, he plays for Schalke 04 and was, the first player of african heritage on the German Nats). He was born in Ghana.

That guy at Inter is Obafemi Martins (Nigeria). He's good, but it's a bit early to go calling him a top striker in Europe.

Anelka (Along with Wiltord) is also from the Antilles.

I see your point, though only half of your half are truly African. Maybe you just meant Black people are taking over soccer, but having spent a couple of years watching the Martin and Fausto Klingers of the world (both from Central America), I don't think just being black is enough.

Nor do I think speed is all of it. To me, athleticism is more imporant than speed, though speed is part of athleticism. There are a number of soccer players who were athletic with the ball without being speedy that have done amazing things (Ferenc Puskas maybe the best example of that).

FWIW, Sir Bobby Robson said that Ronaldo was the fastest thing he'd ever seen with a ball, neither black nor african. So, maybe he's slower than Michael Vick, but he somehow gets by.

And Zidane is african too, and a top player. But not black. So now what? Figure that into your sterotypes for the rest of us.

Thanks.

 

Real alternatives...

When this is not a tottaly silly thread, it is actually a decent discussion of some of the USMNTs younger forward prospects... So cheers on spurring the conversation. But pooh on Wambaugh. Anyway, I'd take Kara Lang before Wambaugh. The fact that she is canadian being less of a barrier than the fact that she's a 16 year old girl... Anyway:

Twellman and Buddle:
I'd say so far Twellman has put up better numbers than Buddle, but scoring is a function of teamwork, too. I have never had a chance to run the players thru their paces side by side, but from what I see in games I'd say yes, Buddle is at least as complete a player as Twellman.

Jaqua:
When he was mentiuoned above in this thread I had never considered him as USMNT material. So I took a look as I had Chicago's 2-0 victory over LA recorded. So this is a one game impression, but I was able to look closely and do a lot of replays. Nate didn't look too bad for a guy with less than 500 minutes in MLS. Some observations relative to Jaqua, Twellman and Buddle and 'traditional' 'target man' attributes follow.

-Helping on D: In a previous Twellman discussion, there was much made of Twellman not getting back and helping on D; Jaqua did only once in his own half but won the ball without fouling. In the offensive half he had 2 good interceptions which led to shots by someone else. Pressure by him led to the misplay that resulted in Beasley's breakaway goal. Twellman had a higher rate of trying to help, but fouled each of the 3 times he got involved.

-size: Jeez he's big. Listed at 6'3" and it looks accurate. I think Twellman is smaller than his listed hieght (he is way smaller than Waldo, I've seen them side by side). I'm not sure about Buddle.

-heading: Nate can get some mustard on the ball. Accurate, too. Twellman scores with his head, but gets better balls (IMHO) from Ralston.

-finishing: Nate failed to finish on a wide open shot. The ball came right to him at about 12 yards while he was unmarked and he blew it. Terrible. He was saved at the near post on a good flick by him and a solid save by Hartmann. The D was all over him and he got the flick off. Not Bad. He turned a lazy slow cross from wide near midfield into a crisp upper corner header from about the 18. An excellent effort, but a great save by Hartmann. So basically he fails to finish, although getting some goos shots off. Promising but hardly ready for the USMNT.

But the coolest thing (from an evaluationable point of view) was a bit of pressure, mostly from Jaqua, leading to a bad back pass. Cardinal Field has the football lines. So beasley and Jaqua are both already moving, generally in line with the ball as it rolls backward form the 40 towards the LA goal. They both sprint. Beasley is at the 42, Jaqua at the 38. Beasley catches Jaqua at the 29. Still even at the 25, Beas is a yard ahead at the 20, Beas touches the ball around Bo at the 15, Jaqua is at the 18 and would not have gotten to the ball. Beas at the 12, J at the 15, Bo on the dirt. Beas at the 10, J at the 14, Beas shoots and scores from the 5, J is at the 8 (Beas was travelling sideways at that point). The thing that caught my attention was Beas passed him like he was sitting still when reviewed real time. I ran it in slo-mo and got the yard markers. Beasley covered 37 yards while Jaqua vovered 30. This makes Beasley about 20% faster than Jaqua. Jaqua is covering ground with strides between 3 and 4 yards long. He doesn't appear to be 'running hard', which merely mean he is graceful. But compared to Beasley he is a stump.

-Dribbling: Nate made 2 good runs with the ball, beating people each time, but by going around them, noit toward the goal. But he kept possesion. Promising, but nothing like what Buddle can do.

-Holding the ball: Nate is impressive at this. Three times he recieved a ball with back to goal, kept from1 to 3 defenders at bay for a few seconds, and made a pass to an open player. Maybe already as good as McBride at this, certainly his size helps. I don't remember either Buddle or Twellman doing this at all.

So I think jaqua should probably not get a look until Buddle and Twellman have a chance. If either of them wash out, then Jaqua is worth a call up. But he is raw and young (22 later this month). His time could be after the next WC.

 

No one that I know of thinks Jaqua should get a look right now. Hell, the game against LA was just his second MLS start and no one deserves a call-up based on two starts.

But given his pedigree AND his size, IF he progresses he COULD be an option as a target forward. That's all anyone said - an option.

With Ralph and potentially Razov missing time next year for qualifiers, it's likely Jaqua will get more starts next year. We'll re-evaluate this after we see how he does in those starts.

 

Re: Real alternatives...

Jaqua is a very good prospect, but at this point he is basically a role player for the Chicago Fire. He would play a lot more if he was on another team, but being behind the best forward tandem in MLS does not help. He is a ways away from getting called into camp by Arena unless Razov or Ralph leave. Buddle has got everything on Jaqua other then his immense size. Twellman and Ruiz are better pure finishers than Buddle as well, but his total game is greater than theirs (technique, strength, passing, holding the ball, creatvity, etc.).

 

If we could get Andre the Giant to come out of Permanent retirement we would really have something.

Although I think she is the female equivalent of Mcbride. And I like Mcbride.