FIFA World Cup: Argentina v. Germany (La Gran FINAL) - July 13, 2014 [R]

While hatred towards Messi will always be stupid, I think its normal hatred when it comes to sports rivalry. Off course some will come up with idiotic arguement but that's life, especially on internet.

 

I cant believe "Messi haters" exist. I mean, i know they do, but what they say is so unbelievably stupid that i chose not to hear or read it.

Messi is amazing, one of the best ever, period.

And he is outstanding for the NT, and, boy, he did wan to win this cup as much as all of us wanted him to win it. He was fantastic this WC. I have only admiration for him, before and after the wc.

Such a great kid, too

 

Despite 22 chances created, the most at the WC, he only had 1 assist.

The critics are way to focused on Messi's performance to notice how awful the other offensive players were in terms of finishing the chances he created for them.

When Rojo has as many goals as Aguero, Palacio, and Higuain combined that should be enough to tell honest observers that the problem wasn't Messi.

 

Klose played in 2 WC finals and a Euro final, didnt score in any of them. German fans wont blame him now as he's part of WC winning squad , at last. He'd still consider as best German NT attacker in history.

Its easier to escape the blame when your team win the game. I already mentioned Maradona missed some chances in 1986 final, including his freekicks too but the other guys scored 3 goals, 2 of them involving Maradona. In fact Maradona took tons of freekicks in that WC maybe more than Messi, and scored zero with it.

 

Well, 60% of WC viewers arent real football fans as they only watch football during the WC itself. Messi has won 20+ thropy with his club + countless individual awards + breaking all kins of record + winning Olympic gold & World youth cup for Argentina + captained Argentina to the WC final. If that's not good , what about those former greats who's achievement is nowhere close to that?

 

No way will he be considered this despite his records. A "great"? Yes. But all time best attacker in German history? No.

 

Well Messi is not one of those people as he recognizes that he blew his one real chance. It certainly was not as bad as Higuain's considering Gonzalo was clear in on the center of the goal.

Messi:
"I do not care about the Golden Ball. I am just upset by the wasted chances," said the Argentina skipper. "We had the best chances, with Higuain, mine and Palacio. We knew we could not dominate the game but we knew what we wanted to do."

As for fading in Argentina games, at Barca it isn't as if he is constantly involved especially when playing his actual position which isn't as a number 10 playmaker but a center forward. Secondly, the difference between Argentina's play in the group relative to the KO round was that Argentina purposely ceded possession in order to play in a more counterattacking defensive manner. Of course in this situation Messi along with the other forwards were only going to influence the games in spurts.

As mentioned in prior comments, Messi is the best in the world but not as a #10. He is a top class playmaker, but the best false 9/CF in the world. It shouldn't shock anyone that after Di Maria's injury Messi did not have a goal or assist for the rest of the WC. This forced Messi to become even more of a creator which was problematic for Argentina as they lost his presence closer to goal.

Even so, it's hard to deny that he was by far the best attacking player on a team that were runners up at the WC with a collection of strikers who only managed a single goal.

 

I said German NT history. His scoring record at club level is not one of best ever.

 

Argentina scored 8 goals, one its an own goal and then Messi scored 4 and setup 1. So the rest of the team only scored 2 goals in 7 matches (3 which went to ET).

 

gerd müller wasnt only the best german NT striker in the past for his 68 goal record pre klose..not everthing is about scoring more..he has scored in 62 games 68 goals, nearly 50% of his teams goals in this 62 games.....scored gamewinners in tons of important matches inclusive wc and eurochampionship finals .....klose has played more than 130 games to beat gerd müllers record 68 goals , + far away of gerd müllers 1.10 goal per game rate....gerd müller played in 13 wc games scoring 14 goals, klose 16 goals in 24 games....

kloses 71 goals inclusive 16 wc goals is great no question but we most put somthing more in perspective..

 

If Messi actually demanded that Kun come in (which there are rumors but no confirmations which I've come across) then I am 100% with you. If not then it clearly did result in a tactical blunder for the reasons already mentioned. Beyond that, Messi missed his one true chance and for that I'm happy he stepped up after the game and held himself accountable.

As for adjusting his game, it's clear he had to once Di Maria was out. All of Argentina did. That said in adjusting it is hard to deny that Argentina lost his presence in finishing chances in the opposing area. Secondly just by looking at average positions all of Argentina sat back more and ceded possession. This isn't an excuse as the numbers bear it out. They were 1st or 2nd in possession in the groups only to be out possessed in all but one of their KO matches. This made them defensively solid, but aside form the final it isn't as if they were creating many chances offensively. We aren't talking about losing just an ordinary player as Di Maria is one of the best attackers in the world while only behind Ronaldo in that regard at the CL winning club (CL final MOTM).

Lavezzi as you suggest was fantastic and he along with Messi were carving out chances in the first half off the dribble. This was the part of the game which Argentina were the far better team. If Messi had any influence on taking out Lavezzi then he deserves the painful loss as this essentially gave Germany a huge advantage after the break. If it as I've also read where Sabella made this as a tactical switch possibly due to Lavezzi being fatigued, then this is either a mistake or misfortune. Either way, it's hardly fair to hold Messi accountable there unless he really was the one that called for the sub. If so, that is inexcusable.

Whether Argentines are satisfied with 2nd is a matter of personal responses. As noted, many including myself are sick given the way they choked to lose this match. Germany as worthy as they were in the rest of the tournament really deserved to be punished for their poor tactical set up in playing a high line for too much of the game. Their defense was quite poor aside from a few brilliant individual moments (Boateng).

So this is a matter of degrees where some reacted to the loss by pinning it all on Messi whereas some were quick to provide excuses. That said, there seemed to have been MUCH more of the latter. This is why I responded the way I did. To pin this painful loss on one player is not accurate especially given that this player, despite the one miss, was by far the best offensive producer in that particular game. I would go as far to say is that Messi was the most dangerous attacker for either team overall as he nearly set up 3 clear chances in the first half when Argentina were at their best. All it would take to realize this is to watch his every touch during the 120 minutes. The call for him to get more involved is based on how dangerous he was when on the ball. None of the other attackers aside from Lavezzi can say the same given how poorly they were in the game when on the ball.

 

Agreed...but still, I think most people will point at "Der Bomber" Mueller before Klose as the GOAT.

EDIT: I see this has already been addressed.

 

We should be hearing soon on Sabella's decision. Personally, I think him staying on another 4 years might be too much. A manager staying on for an extensive amount of time is never good. I know Bilardo did it in 86-90, but Bilardo did not win either the 87 or 89 editions of the CA. You can look at Lippi, who won in 06, I believe he left and came back and the tanos did not even get out of the group stage. You can look at Low, his situation was constant losing before winning, lost in the 08 Euro's Final, semi-finalist in 10, lost in the Euro's again in the semis, and had a late winner for an escape and victory. Del Bosque is another, mundial in 10, Euro's in 12, and got smacked around in this tournament. If he stays on until the Copa America, that is fine, because it might be too early for a new DT to come and try to mold a team together for a tournament.

 

@Moishe - Did Messi really make the call for Aguero to come in? I've also heard Sabella felt Lavezzi was not playing to his instructions and thus yanked him, which of course was a big mistake and makes Sabella look poor.

I feel the first year after the WC is crucial to the development of a team, molding it and more importantly experimenting with some fresh names to the mix. Other than Scolari in WC02, I can't remember a team that won the tournament with a manager appointed after the first 12 months of the previous WC. Sabella did well specially given how Argentina was inflicted with injuries to key players, but many fans have had enough of his style. It's time for a change, and hopefully the over-dependence of Messi also goes away.

 

I don't disagree with you that after a World Cup things need to freshen up, new DT, new players, new system. I just say, I have no issues with him returning for the Copa. Plus, there will be maybe a handful of games at most until the CA. What is a new manager going to get out of playing Hong Kong? Whatever happens, happens.

 

http://www.clarin.com/deportes/futbol/idea-mantener-Sabella-vuelva-Tevez_0_1175882517.html

Grondona wants Sabella to stay but also kind of states that Grondona wants Tevez on the team. If that is true, it would mean that what Batista said a few months ago (about AFA forcing him to include Tevez in Copa team) is true.

Also, if Sabella does leave, hints of Humbertito becoming interim. And by reading that (could be just me), kind of get the idea that Higuain's spot is far from secure.

 

I'll tell you this. I had already had made up my mind before the World Cup bad started, after the tournament win or lose, I would take an extended break. If, Humberto takes over, and this turns into intern to full time, that's it brother. I am done with the selección. You think Diego and Batista were bad, you haven't seen anything yet.

And why even the idea of him taking over for a short period?

 

Lavezzi doesn't have DiMaria's burst or stamina, and he doesn't hold onto the ball as well as well.
He's more a forward build than winger, so on the wings he fatigue faster, doesn't go deep enough, and is slower when he needs to move the ball forward. Plus he's right footed, DiMaria left, I don't see him as an ideal sub for DiMaria.

In the first half, there were cases where Higuain moved the ball forward but no one was ahead of him to help.
Plus, chances were there! No one capitalized. Out of all the missed chances I think Messi's 2 (shot block and miss to the left of post) had the least potentials. Enzo not catch up to the ball on a sitter, Aguero's 2 chances, and Palacio's waste of chance were far worse! Higuain had some bad luck, but still he's more at fault than Messi.

Fact is, we had enough chances, before and after the substitutions (till Gago since he was a defensive sub). Substitutions weren't the problem, problem was the players, their inability to capitalize.
Sure Messi had his responsibilities in our loss, he's not the main issue nevertheless.

 

I think deep down inside we all know Di Maria is our biggest lost. How come it isnt? He contributed on our winners against Belgium and Switzerland or even Messi's opener against NIgeria.

Even with those micchances, in a long stretch, Di Maria will provided something that the other arent capable. We already seen the difference between him and the rest in ET against Switzerland. He did the same in CL final where he keeps coming and coming until your legs give up. He also scored against Barcelona in CDR final. Based on form, he's the best among our attackers.

 

Tevez should have been part of the team, we sorely missed an in-form forward/striker given Aguero's awful performance and Higuain being out of shape. But this is the time to bring in young players to the fold, players hungry for that little window of opportunity to prove themselves with the seleccion. Icardi, Lamela, Peruzzi, Musacchio, Canteros, Botta, Pezella, all of these guys deserve an opportunity. I remember when Bielsa made the needed changes after the WC02 fiasco, he brought an awesome new generation of players to CA04 and the Athens OG, including Mascherano, Tevez, Maxi, Cambiasso, Heinze, DeMichelis, and Saviola, who would be the faces of the NT the following years.

I agree I really hope it is not true but if it is, Messi is a real prima donna and it may be best for the NT to discard him altogether. Who puts his clique ahead of the chance at winning the WC?

Lavezzi was playing on the right against Germany. Seems to me you are trying to excuse his substitution, when it's clear that Argentina lost momentum in the second half after Lavezzi left and failed to put the German defense against the wall as it had most of the entire first half. And Messi's chance against Neuer was an easier opportunity than Palacio's or Higuain's, he had the ball on the ground!

 

I'm really not sure if Messi actually called for the sub as there were no official reports. From what I've read Sabella called for the tactical sub in order to allow him to switch into a 4-3-3. If that is the case then it's a tactical blunder on Sabella. If it was Messi's call then he should be accountable along with Sabella as I'd imagine the coach would have to give him his blessing in order to make such a drastic move. If Sabella didn't give him the OK, then Messi either has way too much power (I find this to be doubtful) or Sabella is spineless.

The Di Maria loss clearly hurt and Argentina offensively were not the same again.

As mentioned by everyone, despite all that, Argentina still created the best chances to score prior to the late Gotze winner. They flat out choked. They were a team set up to beat Germany. Germany live on their high line possession and the worst possible team for that style to come up against is a fast counterattcking side that is comfortable defending deep in their own area. Argentina, whether Messi, Higuain, Palacio, Enzo, Lavezzi, and Aguero all either missed chances they simply must finish or failed to capitalize on final dribbles or passes. That is what is incredibly frustrating. To sit here and argue whether Higuain's or Messi or Palacio's chance was easier is sort of funny because none of them were all that difficult!

As for expecting more from Messi, that is fair. He is the best CF in the world and it would be great if he played as one for Argentina. Regardless Argentina needed him to do more.

That said, Higuain is considered one of the best strikers in Europe. He was alone in on goal and rushed a shot as if he were some amateur. His finish vs Belgium was much harder! Why he didn't take a touch at all to set up his shot when Hummels was badly behind the play is still something that baffles me. Maybe he was conditioned to hit that shot on the run because he did it once and thought it could do it again.

Aguero was the worst of them all because he had countless 1v1s in space and lost it before he could even attempt a shot. His passing was atrocious. There were two occasions where he just needed to hold onto the ball a bit longer as Messi was running into open space ready to receive a pass. What does he to? Lose it!

As for Palacio, it is strange that he is even in a position to contribute. Although he is a good player for Inter, he really has never been on such a big stage. His glorious chance was not super easy, but all he really needed to do was hit it low with the outside of his right foot to the right of the goal. Why would he even attempt to chip a huge goalie in Neuer? He did the same thing vs the Netherlands and missed the net too! He just didn't learn that lesson.

They all choked chances they are all expected to make. Higuain is expected to finish that. Messi is expected to hit the net. Palacio is expected to at least put his shot on net. Aguero is expected not to always lose the ball. All these guys are considered to be some of the best forwards in the world, not just Messi.