I'd like to see us try a Walsh and Miles midfield, seems like they'd give us far more control as a pairing than Page and Rigeon, as well as more incisive passing. I must say I struggle to see the fuss over the pair, but Ridgeon especially, his passing is consistently really poor. Very difficult to see that happening though given how consistently Ryan has stuck with those two. Williams-Barnett is also extremely frustrating, he's as greedy a player as I can ever remember seeing. For sure he's a talented dribbler but its really all he ever tries. It'll be a liability against the good sides. He completed 8 passes today, 8 passes against Haiti(!), Leaves him in the bizarre situation that he's attempted as many dribbles as passes completed these past two games he's started.
That’s been a big issues with this age group the past few years. Dowman, Williams-Barnett, Ngumoha, McAidoo and Howell not as much. They’re all very talented dribblers, and clearly trying to impress but have all been way too greedy. They’re young and they should hopefully grow away from this as much as they progress into senior football.
Some of the players off the top of my head to play CM roles over the last few years. 2004 - Lewis Hall, George Hall 2005 - Kobbie Mainoo, Nico O’Reilly 2006 - Lewis-Skelly, Archie Gray 2007 - Jack Fletcher 2008 - Seth Ridgeon Is there an element of anticipation that certain options will be converted into other roles later down the line and the real deeper CM options will arrive at U19-U21 level? Some of these options have struggled to do the basics in the role but have been persisted with. A bit hard to figure out what we are attempting to do in these roles at these lower age groups.
Most club teams just play entirely through their central defenders. It is incredibly rare for a midfielder to split his centre backs or to drop into the space vacated by a fullback to start the build up. 10 years ago we had a technical problem. Now we have a real out of possession problem where our midfielders are incredibly static at all times. It makes you wonder where the hell Adam Wharton came from.
Not entirely the same thing but we mentioned in the women’s thread that Keira Walsh (who also came through the Blackburn academy) is unique compared to all the other comparable England women’s options of her era.
Personally I thought the midfield was the biggest problem at the Euros as well. Zero control and dreadful passing. Pass completion for Page last night was 79% and Ridgeon 60%! Ill say again that Ridgeon's future is at full back.
Ironically he was a Covid generation player so missed 1-2 years of development, probably why he didn't play for England until 2022.
If George McEachran was a little bigger more managers would've given him a serious chance but alas, they never did, he's still really good and better than League 2 but at 25 an opportunity was definitely missed.
I wouldn't be surprised if he came through as a full-back just because that's what seems to happen with young English midfielders regardless, but I don't think he should do personally. I'm not worried about his passing inconsistency because he can develop in that regard and he still has strong fundamentals - remember his assist for Rodriguez against Belgium in the summer? He also does pretty much everything else you want as a midfielder. Can turn and carry under pressure, ridiculous athlete, wins duels and has a knack for coming up with goals.
I don't think these players look after the ball well in enough to be trusted in midfield. I find it hard to believe that there's some sort of conspiracy to turn capable English midfielders into full backs. MLS is a case in point, he switches off too much even in the full back position so him becoming a midfielder is going to become very difficult, it's much more consequential to lose the ball or your man in central positions than it is out wide. You have to be very positionally and tactically aware. Personally I think there must be an issue in our system that means we don't develop Busquet, De Jong or Veratti type midfielders. Someone like Angel Gomes could've been that player but spent most of his time in his development in attacking midfield positions.
It's not a conspiracy, it's just a natural consequence of how managers in the Premier League set their teams up. You're right that it's far more consequential to lose the ball in the middle than it is out wide and that's exactly why young midfielders often come through at full-back or on the wing. Even the best midfield prospects are going to make errors when they come into senior football, that's completely inevitable because their risk/reward assessment isn't mature. Elliot Anderson was played on the wing in his early days at Newcastle (and at Bristol Rovers), as was Curtis Jones at Liverpool, and Alex Scott spent plenty of time on the wing for Bristol City early doors. Ten Hag had Mainoo at full-back before he played him in midfield too. There are exceptions too but there's a clear pattern here. Football in England is just very, very conservative right now. Edit: Also, if I remember rightly, did Jordon Henderson not come through as a right winger at Sunderland? Pretty sure that's where he spent most of his first season. I even remember Phil Foden playing at LWB in the Champions League as a youngster!
True, young centre backs are often played in full back positions too. That said, how many of the English midfielders that have been repurposed as fullbacks recently do you think are going to play midfield long term?
I'd be very surprised if MLS doesn't end up as a midfielder, whether that's at Arsenal or somewhere else. Same with Rico Lewis and Jack Hinshelwood, although both are already playing more in the middle than they are at FB these days. Scarles I can't say because I haven't seen enough of him, while I think Archie Gray could end up anywhere. I think Hall absolutely could've been a really good midfielder under different circumstances but he's taken to FB so well there's not really an incentive to move him back. I think to a degree, midfielders just make good FBs because they're well-rounded players and it's a way easier role. Some will just end up staying there because they're doing well in the role and the team's needs will always take precedence over an individual's development needs.
I suspect Hinshelwood and Gray will end up as utility men. MLS has a chance but he's got a lot to work on regarding his tactial awareness. I'm sceptical any will become top level centre midfielders though, certainly none will be Veratti types.
Verratti, Busquests and De Jong were never capped at this level. De Jong only began gaining competitive caps at U19 level. Busquets and Verratti first got them at U21 level. Kroos was capped at this level but he was playing as an AM 10 type. Even Luka Modric was playing as a 10 type at U21 level.
Our best ever team at this level with regards to playing out from the back had these players playing the deeper CM roles - Angel Gomes George McEachran Tashan Oakley-Boothe All have had issues of translation to senior level because of size and mobility issues. If you focus on the specifics of how to take the ball off the defence, receive on the ‘half turn’, playing with you back to the opposition, receiving under pressure etc. You could make an argument we have some of these options that can do the above but have one or more question marks about athleticism, mobility and size. It would benefit us far more to have these options for these games. But they have maybe more question marks around there future. Less roles that they can realistically play etc. Maybe the selectors know that a Conor Gallagher type is far more likely to be a PL player than one of the other styles. The others just have too many question marks and the hope is they prove themselves by U19-U21 level. It becomes a massive issue of identifying who and where because by the time certain options were ‘ready’ we had almost lost them (Hackney, Anderson).
Do you not think it's the age old trope of English coaches generally selecting for athleticism? This u17 team is full of athletes and lacking quality on the ball, at least in the middle of the park. The players with more quality on the ball don't start. Angel Gomes may have played the role we're talking about for England but he rarely did at United. Personally I think players like Foden and Josh King have the attributes to play at the base of midfield taking the ball from the keeper but they generally end up as attacking midfielders which tends to be where all our high technique players end up. It's interesting the FDJ, Veratti and Busquets were never capped at this level.
Probably. It certainly was in the past. I’m just throwing out theories tbh. It is sometimes hard to figure out what our individual coaches are actually attempting. We seemed to attempt to play out from the back with a bit more logic in the pretty recent past. Now it just looks a bit silly. We just need a better mix of options. Having an athletic team should help us to compensate for alternative styles options. We’ve made lots of experiments with full backs and other areas but seemed to disregard what we do in midfield. I think this is because top clubs are attempting to create PL ready players and not international players. Easy to blood them as AM’s early. You almost have to be an athletic monster to start deep roles in the PL. We’ve definitely lost players because clubs haven’t trusted options because of athletic or size issues. Most deeper midfielders get pulled back in their late teens or early twenties. Maybe Josh King does end up deeper in the pitch eventually? Not sure.
With Group K completed, we are almost guaranteed to face South Korea in the round (barring unlikely 8 goal wins for Burkina Faso or Saudi Arabia/Mali). South Korea got 7 points from one of the tougher groups and always give us a good game round these levels, so we'll have to step up from what we've seen so far. Group K turned into a thriller with all 4 teams finishing on 4 points, France limping through as group winners by 1 goal. Not sure what happened to France or if they're missing lots of players also, but they looked very convincing in the Euro's outside the final, yet have lost to Uganda and drew to Canada here so far. Uganda limped to the tournament as the lowest placed African qualifier so it doesn't seem like they have an unusually good side.
I do here, yeah. I think the coach was spooked by how easy we were to counter-attack last summer and has learned the completely wrong lesson. Instead of implementing a coordinated and effective press (probably beyond what he's capable of tbf), he just wants to load the midfield with players who can cover huge spaces and win duels (Page and Ridgeon). It's that classic thing that coaches do where they think that loading the team with athletic duel winners makes you more defensively secure, when in reality it just means you invite way more pressure on because you can't keep the ball. I'd definitely have Ridgeon in the team but alongside Miles or Walsh (or even both) at all times.
We played Ridgeon and Page twice in the Euros. I don’t think our system has changed much but we’ve lost certain players. LWB gets the free role that Dowman got. Doesn’t seem to be much instruction for that role. Ryan hasn’t really picked the right CM’s to play a midfield three imo.
I had it in my head that Page wasn't even there last summer which says a lot. He really is incredibly anonymous when he plays for this side.
Think you’re misremembering this. He made his debut for us playing as a 10 against Charlton and then made 2 more appearances that season both playing in midfield. You’re probably thinking of the two preseason games he played in which Ten Hag had him dropping to right back in build up because he didn’t trust Wan Bissaka on the ball. He was playing in the pivot though. Then he got injured and his first appearance back was a start against Everton where he played as a lone 6. The only non midfield appearances he’s made have been under Amorim I’m pretty sure.