I'm at the point of getting annoyed with the "Which is.." and "Who is/are..."-type threads over here. Anyway, I watched the Hamburg-Bremen match live yesterday morning. It was a pretty spirited match with chances by both teams, with groups of fans getting into the action. Then something about these matches hit me. It seems to me that fans in Germany are pretty good-natured about the rivalries within the various leagues. Maybe I'm wrong and not seeing the whole picture. I also saw the Schalke-Dortmund match weeks earlier and I was amazed by groups of fans being able to have their beer in plastic cups without fear of controls. Whenever the action heated up, the singing started up as well, with probably a few chants going back and forth between rival fans, but there wasn't the fear and hostility that you would find in Italy, for example. Then again, I haven't watched many BL matches until recently. So I open this thread to ask about the fan culture in Germany and how it became that way. Are there differences in the level of intensity when it's between two clubs from the same region compared to any other match-up? How do fans usually meet up before a match, through friends and trusted contacts or do they meet up freely? I've checked several fansites and learned as much as possible about fan culture but I don't know much about fan rivalries. I would like to know if there are any rivalries that would compare to Liverpool-Everton or River Plate-Boca Juniors, where there's no room for compromise.
There are sill big rivalries, but more in the lower leagues. VfB Leipzig vs. Sachsen Leipzig is probably the worst of ´em all. Their is almost as much police their as audience. Very violent, very dangerous. The big Rivalries in the Bundesliga have coled down a little. BVB-Schalke is the best known and was also violent in the past, but since the 1997 season when Schalke won the UEFA-cup and Dortmund the ChampionsLeague. In that season they understood each other more as represantators of the Ruhrgebiet than as rivals. But still a win over the other is as important as the place at the end of the season. At least to me. Other Rivalries don´t have this tention, cause wether the roles of underdog and favourite are to clear(Bayern-1860,HSV-St.Pauli) or the distance between the cities is too far to make it that hot(Werder-HSV,Koeln-M`glabach,Freiburg/Karlsruhe-Stuttgart) Something special is the rivalry between Koeln and Leverkusen, cause Bayer is more succesful over the past years and clear favourite, but the people still don´t respect them, cause they belong to the BayerAG and have no tradition. They are still the small neighbour. A rivalry that has fallen a sleep a little is the one between Bochum and Wattenscheid, that is a suburb of Bochum, cause Wattenscheid and Bochum havn´t played each other for years. The same with BFC Dynamo Berlin and Union Berlin, who were bitter rivals in the former East-Germany. BFC was the rich club of Stasi-director Erich Mielke, the most feared person in the country. BFC became every player they wanted because of that conection. Union was the club of the regime-opposition and so they of course hated the BFC. They had more fans, but no support by the government. Now Union is more succesful and plays in the 2.BL while BFC is completely broken and plays fourth league.
Germany doesn't have a rivalry that could compare on a large scale with Barcelona-Real Madrid, Milan-Inter, Rome-Lazio, PSG-Marseille, Manchester U.-Arsenal, Rangers-Celtic, Ajax-Feyenoord, Olympiakos-Panathinakios, Sporting Lisbon-Benifica. I guess Dortmund-Shalke is the biggest they have.
Three things about the rivalry in Germany. The new stadiums are build so, that the fans can be easy controlled and don`t meet in the game, and capacities are shrinked. At a match with agrressive rivalry fan groups, the police sent 3.000 . 5.000 police man. Fights are not shown on TV, exclude a city is damaged or so. Hard fights in the last years ever come up between Frankfurt and Offenbach (in the Cup) Schalke vs. Essen, even they don`t play in one league, but they fought. Hardest fight's I've saw live with Schalke were: Kickers Offenbach vs. Schalke (the night was filled with signal munition - in and outside the stadium), RW Essen vs. Schalke (signal munition in the stadium and the field stormed by Schalke fans, fan hunt after the game), Schalke vs. RW Essen (field stormed, signal m. and goalkeeper from Essen kicked by fans), Dortmund vs. Schalke (old Westfalen stadion) Schalke vs. Dortmund old Parkstadium (field stormend by both groups, signal m., fight on the terraces - pre- while- and post game, totally fan hunting, Schalke Cologne, Cologne Schalke (terraces storming by both, mass hunts pre- while and post- the game) Schalke vs. Düsseldorf (stadium damaged, fighting at the station), Werder Bremen vs. Schalke (Burning cars, stadium damaged and fan hunt), on the road to another Bremen vs. Schalke (fan hunt with Hamburg fans - we meet on the highway - a destroyed restaurant on the highway, demolutet cars, fan hunt, signal m., destroyed motel, wrecked fan busses). And special Holland vs. England at the European Cup in Germany - German fans fought first vs. England an than vs. Holland, hundreds of destroyed cars, one station was damaged, the fight roll from 10 pm till 5 am, 8.000 police man want to stop this, they can`t. I've seen hundreds of other little fights But when you want to see some fan fight, watch 2004 the Eropean Cup in Portugal, Germany vs. Holland, I think you'll see -grinding- a little.
I forgot, in BuLi the fight rate go down cause there are other things too: the poeple come with children or wifes, wifes come alone, and won`t fight and the poeple think more about the madness that happened. For me is the same thing, I'd never like this violence. But in the last 20 years you have to fight sometimes to get your ass without injurance back home, mostly on the road.
The fans attendance in the BuLi grows, since the hools are (mostly) banned. And that's ok. To watch a soccer is one thing, to survive it like in the 80's or 90`s is an other.
Those are quite some stories to tell. I had read and heard about the "bad old days" of the 1980s. But it was mostly having to do with the English hoolies. One of the more interesting things I found was that Manchester United used to have some of the worse hoolies, which is interesting considering that the atmosphere at Old Trafford is considered by many to resemble a church service. LOL Well, the topic wasn't intended to ask just about hoolies but also about fans and how they are on match day. Such as the consumption of lager leading up to the match. I don't know the exact translation but I kind of imagine a lot of drinking and a lot of singing at the ale houses right before the walk to the stadium. Or maybe that's a stereotypical or old image of them. How much of the fighting back then had political overtones? There seems to be a lot of mistrust between the "Ost" Germans and the "Ovest" Germans, mostly to do with how reunification is being handled. Maybe that's behind the move of the capital back to Berlin...to try and unite the people for real. That and bigger office space for the politicians. LOL
The east west rivelry ist mostly made by politicans from the left side. I remember when people demonstrate in the east, a lot of social democratic people was against of the particially reunion (e.g. Oskar Lafontaine) they argued that is too expensive, but what they payed all the years uncontrolled to the east, that was not spoken. And this mind is burned in a lot of brains in the west, never they asked what Germany pay to the european union, that`s much more. Another thing was, some of social democratics had sympathics for the other sides "Republik". However, the system was not friendly, cause to shoot when people want leave the country is ill.
Please tell me if I'm wrong about this. I get the impression that the old East German system had more supporters in West Berlin and parts of western Germany than in the eastern part of Germany. It baffles me how there were so many demostrations with people waving red flags and anarchist signs in West Berlin, while people in the East were trying to cross over the border back then. Or perhaps they're very vocal about it. What is eastern Germany (outside Berlin) like these days, if you know? OK. Getting away from politics, I could imagine what it's like for someone to support a small club when surrounded by big clubs. However, there are cases when one's dedication is really tested. Like with 1860 fans, with all the Bayern fans surrounding them and sharing the same stadium as FC Hollywood. The 15,000-20,000 who show up every weekend must be really dedicated fans. I guess the same could be said for fans of St. Pauli, surrounded by HSV fans.
The eastern part had many supporters among the student-movement in the late 60´s and 70´s, but the more people saw how their system works, the less supporters it had. In this time the Communist idea was very popular among the young and people thought that the eastern germany would practice that. But you also have to see that the students were trying to provoke their parents and wanted to seperate themselfes from them, so they choosed the Communist idea. Many didn´t realy like the idea, but went to those demonstrations just for provokation. You see, it´s a very complex part of german history that may be hard to understand for someone who is not german, cause it has a lot to do with our 3rd Reich-past and many, many other things. 1860 Munich is the club with the bigger tradition and those people from the centre of Munich are usualy 1860 supporters. Bayern became popular when it became succesful in the late 60´s and 70´s. Before that 1860 had more fans then them. St.Pauli is something special. The HSV was always bigger and has a lot more tradition, but the St.Pauli supporters don´t care about such things. They are like the opposite of the HSV. St.Pauli is more than Success and Tradition, it is a political statement.
as soccerfreak already said. in munich the people are more or less not very interested in football. of course both clubs have their die-hard fans, but there are, especially at bayern, much more fans just attending the matches (and thus staying away when there is no success or no attractive opponent). the opposite are clubs like kaiserslautern, schlacke and dortmund. schlacke even had incredible crowds at their ui-cup matches. in munich you would'nt see 10.000 (yesterday 8.000-10.000 attended the dfb cup match against hamburg). jonam, http://www.schwatzgelb.com
And what's up with the Luedenscheid Card`s anyway, don`t tell such thing whan your have the same rules by cards for the year.
i don't wanna defend anyone. but the tickets weren't on every season ticket. the fans had the choice to buy the ui-cup option (pay 1 match and get free entrance to every (up to 3) matches). so on the one hand you're right on the other hand still many fans bought this option. adding to this even in last year's uefa cup match against gomel they had a nearly sold out stadium (50k+). jonam, http://www.schwatzgelb.com
So you're basically saying that the clubs in Munich manage to stay in business despite the level of interest in the city? Perhaps you mean RELATIVE to the rest of Germany? So that would mean that they have to depend on the rest of Bavaria and other parts of Germany, because I would think that for a club like Bayern to get anywhere close to 60,000 for any match they have to have some kind of presence in the whole of Bavaria, including Munich. I never heard of a case where there is a major club in a major city that doesn't draw much from that city. Even the New York Yankees draw a lot of people from the city of New York, even though professional baseball is more popular in the suburbs.
what about juventus. a huge club in a quite big city with lousy attendances? when they play in monza or even in sicily they sell out every stadum. regarding bayern they have fans from all over germany. of course out of 1,4 million people in munich there are several fans but as you said relatively few compared to kaiserlautern or other clubs.
Good point. I forgot about Juve and don't understand about that, either. Maybe they should move to Sicily, then. About the big flags at the grounds, can anyone bring a big flag to the ground or are there a group of fans selected to wave them at matches? I usually see the big flags at the first rows behind the goals and that's why I ask.
Most people in Turin are Torino fans, and not Juventus. It's similar to Manchester, where people in Manchester itself are City fans.
What about St Pauli vs Hansa Rostock? isnt it a very political game (extreme left vs extreme right?). I dont know if rivalry is the right word but ive heard that a lot of trouble is connected with that game. 35 euros for a ticket to the world cup and affordable beer- you germans do anything to make a friend . Denmark better qualify since germany is probably the closest the world cup will ever come denmark
Who said that Hansa fans are extreme right? The town Rostock has some problems with that, but the club tries to get rid of those "fans". In Rostock there is also a strong left scene, like in most of the other eastern-german towns, too, so you can´t make it you that easy and say that Hansa fans are extreme right. I think Germanshepherd and domingo can tell you more about that, but I think/hope I´m not too far away from the truth.
Well, the problem between Hansa and St. Pauli occured in the years after the reunification. And there were some tensions between the fans, due to the fact that Hansa had quite a few rights and St. Pauli left radicals. Then there was a movie in which a Rostock girl met a St. Pauli fan. They fell in love and the brother of the girl (quliche: bad teeth and right wing) stapped the Pauli supporter. That movie didn´t really help. There were some more incidents which I don´t want to repeat. I think the rivalry is over since we don´t have more or less right wing fans at Hansa than anywhere else in Bundesliga. And we don´t meet them anymore, cause they disappeared somehow, where have they gone? Oh I remember, they play Regionalliga!
The biggest upset between Hansa and St.Pauli was a bundesliga-game in 1995 where there were riots during the game. The riots were started from both sides but in the end the whole guilt was given to Hansa. The media was very onesided. It was another sign of how our media is blind on the left eye. The result were two home games from Hansa that had to take place outside the Ostseestadion. The club decided to play in Berlin in the Olympiastadion. (Hertha was a little club in bundesliga 2 during that time). The games in Berlin had 70000 and 60000 Hansa-fans, the biggest crowd of Hansa-fans ever. We still lough today about this kind of punishment.