Fallujah--success or failure?

Marines: Fallujah Battle a Source of Pride

By KATARINA KRATOVAC

FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - Maj. Rich Bourgeois says the image of a young Navy medical corpsman rushing to aide a mortally wounded Marine in Fallujah's notorious Jolan district will be forever imprinted in his mind.
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More than 50 Marines have died since the Fallujah attack began Nov. 8, and skirmishes still take place in the city. Yet for some Marines, their performance in one of the major battles of the Iraq conflict is a source of pride.
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"Fallujah is going to be right up there among the most successful battles in Iraq,'' said Maj. Tom Davis, 45, of St. Cloud, Minn. "It's where the rubber meets the road. That is where our heroes did their best.''
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"Fallujah has been a life-changing event for many of the Marines, fighting in an environment that is just unfathomable to anyone outside,'' said Bourgeois, an explosives expert who retired from active duty two years ago, but was recalled this year.
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Although the fighting was brutal, Bourgeois believes the Marines' morale was reinforced when they found evidence of atrocities committed by insurgents - including emaciated hostages chained to the wall and bodies of those killed execution-style.

"When we saw what the enemy did, what they were capable of doing, we were only more eager to do away with this pure evil,'' Bourgeois added. "Regardless of how many pockets of resistance are still out there, it will not sway our morale. Nothing can.''

Lyle Gilbert, a first lieutenant and spokesman for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, said morale is high in Fallujah - despite the ongoing firefights.

"Sure, the Marines are engaging every day. Fallujah is not as cleared as everyone would like it to be,'' he said. "Some insurgents still lie there in waiting. They get restless, hungry and start shooting at us. But we will chase them. We shall beat them on their turf.''
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Sgt. Wayne Doyle, 23, of Neversink, N.Y., said he naturally misses home.

"But I'd much rather be here with my Marines,'' he said. "And I'd do Fallujah all over again.''

 

That isn't a compelling argument for invading other countries. These guys are understandibly emotional about the experience. But we have spent 200 billion, killed and injured tens of thousands, and destabilized the globe. I am not sure a 'thumbs up' from a 23 year old marine makes it a good decision. GWB, Rummy, Wolfowitz and the rest have really stepped in it.

 

I'd rather that then help turn Iraq into a mini-Iran. The sad thing is that once we captured Saddam we could have declared victory and gone home with the entire world thinking we're invincible.

 

How have we "destabilized the globe?"

 

Just hypothetically, assuming that the US was at all inclined to let such a thing happen, are you suggesting that you believe that it is better for the Iraqi people to live under the murderous Bathists and jihadists than under a Shia dominated government that enjoys good relations with their larger Shia neighbor? Or is that you don't care what happens to the Iraqi people anyway?

Why, why, are the Iraqis skeptical that the Americans are in Iraq for all these supposed good intensions? Maybe, maybe, just because of attitudes such as yours.

 

Hardly. I was against the war and am arguing that we could make things worse by staying. I certainly don't want to spend thousands more lives and a few hundred billion more dollars and end up with another Shia theocracy. For goodness sakes, let the Iranians pay for that!

 

You want them home, prove you're serious about it and make a donation. While it won't affect overall policy, it will make a difference in the life a soldier deployed as well as the lives of his or her family.


http://www.lbeh.org/

 

This is a great idea. I believe there is also an organization that you can donate your frequent flyer miles to for the same purpose, but I don't have a link and I'm headed to work.

 

Can somebody help me out and explain the difference between "jihadists" and a "Shia dominated government" 'cause I'm just not seeing it.

You have to be stone stupid not to realize that if there was true democracy in the Muslim world, 100% of those countries would be ruled by some form of a theocracy, and likely far more hostile to the US than the puppet regimes that run them now. The closest thing to a free election they've had recently, or ever, was Algeria, and when it became apparent the fundamentalists were going to win hands down, the army stepped in and called it off. The exact same situation will occur in Iraq if true elections are held.

But the funny thing is, it won't matter. Whoever runs the country will still sell us oil because sand makes a lousy dinner. It's all they've got, and no matter how much they say they hate us, in the end, they'll do it. So all the money and lives we have spent protecting our oil sources has been a monumental waste of time, money and now lives.

If the US got out of meddling in Middle East politics, fanatics like bin Laden et al would have no platform stand upon. And while the vast majority of the Muslim world hates the US right now, I doubt they truly want to go back to the Bronze Age and live under Taliban-like rule. If we leave they will have to deal internally with their own problems, without the handy excuse of blaming it all on US support for puppet regimes that run the countries now. They'll all turn into some form of limited democracy like Iran, which despite it's fascination w/ nukes, is about as much of a threat to the US as Canada. And the day that hydrogen power or some other source becomes reality, the whole Muslim world will be about as relevant to our lives as Andorra.

Oh, and more to the point, Fallujah was an overwhelming military success and an utter political failure.

Thank you.

 

It's not cute, it's for a worthy cause. I said it won't change policy. But if you're going to claim you're supportive of the troops and want them home, then put your money where your mouth is.

 

Nope, it's not "cute" enough.

 

I'll let the EU decide if Turkey is democratic. The traditionally secular military has long been the power in Turkey. Minus that factor, and I'd bet on some form of Islamist government. Still, as long as you aren't Kurdish, the closest thing the Muslim world has.

Re: Indonesia, see "Timor, East." A democracy in name only. Another military regime posing as democracy. It is the largest Muslim nation, and until the recent bombings, long considered one of the most moderate.

 

Will you allow us to deem their leaders as failures?

I'd rather support the troops by not using them as expendable pawns, but I hope your happy talk thing works for you.

 

Of course it works for him.

Besides, our boys (and girls) aren't really dying over there! Have YOU seen any pictures of flag draped COFFINS lately?

C'mon, Dan!


"Son, all I've ever asked of my marines is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the Iraqis, because inside every ***** there is an American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.


Aye-aye, sir."

 

I'd rather take the opinion of a 23 year old marine who was there, as opposed to a bunch of whiny, out-of-shape, former high school soccer bench warmers writing about politics on a message board.

 

Ian, this is completely out of line, and is also totally inaccurate.

I'll have you know, I was cut from my high school soccer team. So there.

 

With all the banter here I want to say thank you for doing this. These young people who have sacrificed so much while asking for so little will always remember what you have done for them.

 

Amen. I couldn't have said it better.

Respect, to those that have given there lives in combat.

 

How did we lose any chance of winning? What's so special about these attacks?

A price will be paid if we lose this one.