Having work a few special events over the past few years (all three World Cups held in the USA as well as the 1996 Dem Nat'l Convention) I have a bit of experience to draw on in regards to the Security issue. First of all it's wrong that they would haul off the wrong person, we all agree on that and the professionals in the business will also say the same. However, when it comes to large groups the majority of Security Professionals may grab the wrong person with the intent of sending a message -- yeah it's wrong but the logic behind it is if we show them that we mean business right away then maybe this will stop. Smoke bombs are harmless to most of us? Stand next to one for a few minutes then ask that question again. Personally, I don't have issues with them but remember we're one of the few countries on the planet where you can sue someone on a damn Sunday and for just about anything, so what do you guys say when someone wants to sue the Fire, SF, Section 8 and who knows whom because the smoke cause a burning sensation in their eyes? Hey, fat people are suiing McDonald's,so why not over smoke bombs. Most self respecting lawyers wouldn't touch such a dumb ass case but there's always that select few whom are part of the ambulance chaser family and they'd love it. Better communication has always been a challenge for the supporter's clubs and more so with a lot of new faces in the group. One of the best ways to solve the problem is to post sign cards near the entrances of the section informing people of the rules and it would be great to post it in the three major languages of the section (English, Espanol, et Polska). Once people stop to read this, it can function as a waiver in regards to those whom decide to violate the rules. You're warning is right in front of you, so those people whom decide to violate the rules and get caught are on their own as far as I'm concerned. I would also encourage those of you attending matches to make sure someone captures photos of security in action on a regular basis, so in the event there's an issue, it's documented in photo format. We have a great thing, I and a few others worked to help create that section from day one and we'd like to see it improve. Marcin, Liam and Coz as well as a few others have done a fine job. Monterrey, have a bit of a learning curve and by working with them, we can make things so much better and that much more fun. Remember, it took us two seasons at the old SF, to be allowed to stand on chairs, get the large flags and get an actual smoke machine. Hell, the last game of the season before we were shipped to Nappyville, it was understood about smoke bombs and flares (i.e. we'll kinda not see it but don't do it right in front of a security person). We can do this and we can do this the right way.
Coz, I sincerely apologize if I offended you. I was criticizing the security, not you. If you recall the thread here about how quiet Section 8 was after a game, I pointed out that one of the reasons was that Coz had to work that day and we missed the drums. I also said that the day you, Marcin, Miruk and others leaders stopped showing up Section 8 would be in trouble. Earlier in this thread I thanked Liam for all the work he has done. I think it is fair to say that Liam is not a member of the Tom Flannigan fan club. But the guy has worked hard and he deserves credit for it. Same with you and the rest of the leaders. The people in Section 8 are united by one thing; loyalty to a club team. We don’t all support the same national team, political party or lifestyle. We can’t even agree on what beer is good, and is a pretty serious cultural rift when you can’t agree on beer! I hope people obey the rules even if they don’t agree with them and don’t light flares on Friday night. We are going to need all the noise we can muster. History has a way of repeating itself. In October, 2001, we played the LA Galaxy in a deciding semi-final match. Section 8 was really rocking.. Suddenly, two guys in front of me were hauled away with their arms behind their back by plain clothes security guards dressed in Fire kits. I think one had tried to light a flare and the other one was his friend. People were freaked. They didn’t know if the guy in front of them or next to them was a security guard dressed as a fan. It absolutely killed the energy in the part of Section 8 and we got beat in overtime. I don’t want to see that happen again. I also think the security should be more reasonable and not arrest innocent people. I don’t think that is an unreasonable position.
This is a good idea, in theory, but I can just envision Monterrey forcibly taking away someone's camera if they tried to do this. Cops don't like the cameras on them. (See: King, Rodney or Convention, 1968 Democratic National) And remember, a lot of these guys are off-duty cops moonlighting. If you do try to do this, make it a disposable camera so you don't lose a lot of cash on the prospect.
Actually, a very small number are cops moonlighting. FOP (Fraternal Order of Police) made it clear that cops moonlighting off duty will not be covered by them in the event of whatever. It was done so that they wouldn't take away jobs from others within their own organization. It's a good idea only when people practice it. I don't recall stating a specific type of camera, although I'm guessing that if it's a high end model and it gets damaged or confiscated, you'd have a great chance to really make noise. Remember this isn't about us against the, it's about having a great time doing the things we enjoy in a safe environment.
I am a Deadhead. I went to zillions of concerts between 1970 and the present, and hitch-hiked around following them in 1971. All of this was a terrible mistake. I should have gone to more concerts. The Dead played at Soldier Field many times and security was very good. Basically if you were caught with a can of beer they told you to throw it out in their presence. Other refreshments were popular as well, and security would force Deadheads to throw it out in their presence. Everyone cooperated and I never saw anyone tossed although they could have thrown out 80 per cent of the stadium if they wanted. This is the same city and same stadium, but a different security company. Very different approach. Keep in mind that other cities and other venues were stricter and had all kinds of problems with mass arrests the usual result. I don’t think Chicago Police Officers are allowed to moonlight. I come from a long line of police and my uncle, who never married but lived with us, used to moonlight as a security officer at the Loop Synagogue. The crackdown came 15 years ago so I highly doubt that the Monterey Security people are off-duty CPD officers. Filming them is a good idea but I’m not going to do it. I want to stay as far away from these guys as possible.
Beating dead horses with spiked maces: Jay - our man in question was not in the direction from which the bottle came at any point, actually. But that's no longer important. Flynn - it seems your time abroad has given you a strong sense of rationality. I commend you. Andrew - Keep on rockin' in the free world. Despite some naysayers here, we still live in it. Everyone - Let our representatives deal with this officially, and respect and appreciate what they do. I think that's generally agreed upon. How should we as group react? Well that's sticky. Are we prepared to walk out en masse? I doubt it, at least not at Friday's game. The idea is good, though, should things deteriorate with security into next season. A single instance of mass exodus - peacefully - would make a strong point to a lot of people. In the mean time, recognize that we are subject to rules, whatever we think of them or their legality. Jim Curtin - Thanks for cutting your hair, but you still owe us three months of Curtin Calls. I think that sums it all up. Benny "Shaolin-Stylin' " K
Mike I hope you enjoyed hunting. I know another guy who is out hunting this time of year. I agree with you. I think having a ban on flares at a sports event is reasonable. I hope that no one lights them on Friday night. I am even more conservative than most of the Fire fans I talk to because I don't think we should throw anything on the field either. One of the reasons we have a fairly tough fire code here in Chicago is the Iroquois Theater Fire, Our Lady of the Angels fire, and other disasters. But security does not have to haul people out who happen to be close to the flare. At RFK and Kansas City, a stern warning stopped flare activity I don't agree with banning one leader from standing on a chair.
I love compromise. I offered to bring in a bench. A milk crate or two would probably be easier. But we need permission to do this and I don't see a lot of flexibility from security. With the control room and cameras trained on us with Instant Replays, you would think they could identify who the culprit is. I know it is easier to just pick a couple of people, or haul someone out for saying: "is there anything else?" but is that fair?
A few years ago there was a popular book called The Death of Common Sense". It documented all kinds of ridiculous measures done in the name of security. That was when before You Know What. Chicago likes to brag about its strict fire and building code, but the building behind me just had a fire that killed 6 people. No sprinklers. We have also had the E2 nightclub disaster and the porch collapse last summer. Rhode Island had that terrible fire at a rock concert. Americans are more likely to die in fires than most OECD nations. I think there are bigger problems than flares at soccer games. I don't make the rules, but how they are enforced is just as important. I have been to lots of concert halls and opera houses and every one of them allowed standing room tickets to be sold except the ones in Chicago. The Fire code was the reason given. But remember the old Chicago Stadium, which had 16,000 seats, while the Tribune often reported audiences for Black Hawks games as "20,000-estimated". I was at a lot of those games and 20,000 was a conservative estimate. But Wirtz owned the Hawks and seemed to be able to sell as many standing room specators as could be shoe-horned into the building. Remember what Alderman Paddy Bauler said at the City Council: "Chicago ain't ready for reform." Just my opinions.
These chairs aren't flimsy, as a matter of fact they were bragging about how high tech and durable they are. I fully beleive that standing on them , even bouncing on them will not hurt them. Why would they even install chairs that could be broken by standing on them? I think the real issue is they don't want drunks and clods falling of of them or breaking their legs in them. Do you really think they will be able to enforce no standing on the seats when say U2 , Dave Mathews or some other big music act comes to play there?
My buddy broke his seat at October 18th game. We were just sitting and bouncing. It has been fixed and now is so tight he can barely bounce.