I understand your not wanting to be arrested because of the mistakes of others...I understand that completely. And like I said, I'm not defending the actions of Monterrey. They've overreacted and that's pretty clear. The point I'm trying to make is that Monterrey would have no reason to go in there to bust people if the people who were there were following the rules. As far as I've discerned from reading on here, the reasons for the "arrests" have been: Standing on chairs Lighting pyrotechnics Smuggling in beer Throwing a bottle at a security guard. Dumb as you or others think these rules may be, it is their perogative. It seems like we're pointing the finger at Monterrey, and deservedly so, but maybe not looking at ourselves that closely.
I think Genpab, Coz and Hala covered all my thoughts on this incident. Security didn't handle things perfectly. Maybe not even well. But we do have open lines of communication with them and they do listen to what we have to say and make best efforts to improve. We saw it from the first game to the second. In this last game someone set off a smoke bomb. Everybody enjoyed it. I did too. But they aren't allowed. So the security came to do their job. They didn't do it very well, admitted but we were not exactly without fault in the incident. The people who should be pissed are the people who got pulled out. Specifically Andrew who was the only truly innocent person of the bunch (as far as I know). Andrew seems to have come to terms with the whole thing. We will continue to work with security and we will talk to them about what we feel were mistakes or injustices and adjustments will be made. That's the way intelligent adults deal with things. They don't jump up and down waving the constitution while talking out of their ass.
I have a recommendation: Request that Pinkerton make it clear what is and is not allowed. All I ever see on my trek to gate 0 is 1 sign on the sidewalk outside listing banned items. That's just asking, no, begging people to not know. And to those to whom it applies, please stop equating run-ins with stadium security companies with the paranoia of the American people. I know it's hard news, but not everything is Bush's fault.
I don't understand the hostility. Innocent Fire fans get arrested and we aren't supposed to complain? OK, one guy lit a flare, one guy had a beer, and another guy threw something. How do you come up with only one innocent person? I think a lot of fans yesterday would not agree with you. Section 8 was enraged. Did you hear the boos? Or is that supposed to be prohibited too? I agree with pabloescobar on most points, except the standing issue. You can justify a restriction on flares as a fire hazard. I see no basis for tossing Miruk because he stood on one of the chairs to lead the cheers. Someone told me that the chairs are "delicate" and "imported from Australia." The chairs have to be able to withstand the weight of a 300 pound man sitting in them. Couldn't they withstand a 170 pound man standing on them? This is a football stadium!
1. It doesn't matter if the chairs are made of cast iron. The rule is nobody is suppose to stand on them or the rails. Shitty as it may seem. It's a rule. Your a freaking lawyer aren't you? You should have some sense about following rules. 2. Andrew was the only innocent person removed from the section. End of story. I know exactly went down. Not only was I right there, I talked to most of the parties involved afterwards. Steve brought in cans of beer. Do I care? No but it's against the rules so he was going to get tossed for it (and appearently at the discretion of the security gaurd mouthing off). Tomek was tossed for completely disrespecting the Security that was there and possibly getting physically involved. Tomek has a tendancy to do these things. I think it's great that he is so pationate, but he will always get in trouble for it. There were two others removed after the fact. One was kicked out for spitting on the back of one of the security guards. I think someone spitting at me would be enough to get them thrown out if I had the choice. The other was probably the actual bottle thrower, though I don't know this for a fact. I state again, Andrew was the only innocent person removed. None of us liked the situation. We all booed and yelled as is our right. I even pulled one of the security guards aside and pointed out that the treatment of Andrew was wrong and also not handled well. That's the best I could do on the spot. He was the same security guard, incidentally who was very helpful in finding my 7 year old son who had gotten a little lost earlier in the game. Any hostility you may feel toward you and your comments Thomas Flannigan are probably because you come off like a total jackass the way you over react about things. But that's just my personal opinion. Others may have different issues.
Well, I found Marcin, Liam, and jjayq's original posts here... https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=70822&perpage=15&pagenumber=13
Lets see if I have this straight. Tribune writes article about Chicago attorney getting big settlement from city for class action suit involving civil rights abuse of homeless. Now another attorney is trying to inflame passions about "civil rights violations" of sec8 and compares the US to Iran over same. Hey, if the city will settle with the homeless, why not sec8? We may look and smell the same, but sec8 has to make a better plaintiff than the homeless, right? Feckin lawyers!
A post here is good for us, and none of us were the violators of the rules (at least this time), but we are a small fraction of S8ers. There are not clear signs or indicators of what is permissible, or at least I haven't seen more than one small sign. Signs in Polish and Spanish may be appropriate too.
I'm sorry. This is flat out wrong. Tom did not over react in any way shape or form. The over-reactors are the "security" people, some of whom apparently have some sort of gestapo-complex. Harrassment of innocent fee-paying customers in a public facility should be brought to light and not swept under the carpet as some of you would have it be. It has been proven time after time that if people do not stand up for their rights, they will have them removed, usually slowly and subtly. Additionally, this crap about "it's their place and they make the rules" is complete and utter BS. Soldier Field is the property of a public agency and thus owned by the public. It is not unreasonable to have rules for safe conduct, but arbitary and capricious mandates by unseen adminstrators without recourse to public input is no good. Some of you would probably just roll over and accept it if the powers that be instituted a new rule that henceforth the wearing of the color red except by security people at Soldier Field would no longer be tolerated. A perfectly reasonable rule. That way the security people are easily identifable and no one can confuse a non-security person with a security person. Perhaps coming soon to a stadium near you.
Jay, not to nitpick, but I did see one more innocent removed from the stands. He was not standing anywhere near where the thrown bottle came from, so why he was removed is anybody's guess. The beer-can guy was not removed for having the can. In fact, he willingly gave it up when asked. He was removed after asking if "anything else is wrong." His tone was snide, sure, but does having your feelings hurt qualify as justification for ejecting a fan? That's debateable. Anyway, mad props to my fellaz what work wit Monterrey to help us all out. Ya'll be like Malcolm X and shizy. But for Fire fans. That's tight.
That is the cheapest shot yet. I have absolutely no interest in this as a case and I hope that no one contemplates suing anybody over this. The people involved should try to work this out. I don't know what homeless case you are referring to but I think it is pretty unfair to accuse me of this. I think there are too many bogus class actions out there and some of the attorneys filing this garbage do a lot of harm. jjayg, could you please lay off the personal attacks? I did not compare the U.S. to Iran. I said fans at games there can display banners and flags while fans at the Home Depot Center cannot, yet we are supposed to be the free country. pabloescobar, thanks for posting the link. I had not read that thread so it is news to me. It doesn't change any of my opinions but it was worth reading, that's for sure. Please keep in mind that some people NOT in Section 8 are pretty angry about the security too. This is not just a Tomek vs. Monterey issue by any means.
Feuerfex, well, not to pick apart your argument, but I'm going to pick apart your argument. First...Soldier Field is at best quasi-public. If it was completely public, then we wouldn't be charged to enter the facility, and Coz wouldn't need to come up with 50-grand to have his band play there. All park district facilities, while a member of a governmental body, have rules. You can't drink in the parks. You can't let your dog crap all over the place and not pick it up, etc. As for your argument about them setting whatever rules they want, they're not setting these rules to punish Fire Fans. They're doing them for the good of the public as a whole and for the good of the facility. For example, banning pyrotechnics prevents injuries and damage. Banning bringing in your own alcohol lowers their insurance premiums by an exponential amount. Banning standing on the chairs, and I agree that this is a real ridculous one, for the point that Thomas raised, prevents damage to the chairs. If Joe Fire Fan tailgated, came into the park drunk, stood on the seats while holding a smoke bomb, then slipped and broke his neck, his family could conceivably sue the Park District, city, SMG (the management company), and could conceivably win. I don't see why SF shouldn't prevent these liabilities. Maybe I'm just more conservative then some of you but I don't think that any of these rules are outrageous. And spare me the argument about stadiums in other countries. We're not in other countries. We're here. This is what's generally accepted in America. MDSC: You're probably right. They probably should have it posted. Maybe I overestimate the communication in Section 8 between people who are here and people who aren't.
Tom, I did not mean it as a cheap shot. Just poking fun. I enjoy everyones perspective on what are "rights". I agree with the class actions bs. No harm intended. My name is Pat, and I am an....................attorney [hangs head in shame]
To me, this is an over reaction. I guess all people are different. If Tom had just stated that he was upset about how security handled the situation then I would only agree with him. Instead we get rhetoric about american "freedom", we get the security guards "parading" people around. We get all people in the radius of a man simply drinking a beer getting busted. You don't see some over reaction here? I don't think there is any doubt that some of the Monterrey security people have the exact complex that you speak of. It is certainly not all of them, though and it is certainly something that can and will be addressed. Should be and is. Noone is trying to sweep anything under the carpet. We are simply trying to address the events in a manner which will be conducive to a solution. Getting everybody riled up against Security is only going to make things worse. We are stuck with them as much as they are stuck with us. We need to learn to live together. Surely we all understand this.
Benny, I don't know about that guy either. I assumed he was the bottle guy. It was a long time after the incident when he was removed and he could have already moved down a couple of rows. I am pretty sure they picked him right off the video. I doubt he was just a guy they decided to pick on after all that time. As for the stuff with Steve and his beer. I'm sure he would think his comment was a lot less then it really was while the security guy would think it was a lot more. In any event, he never really got thrown out and he wasn't that hard to find after he "wandered off". They could have tossed him again if they really wanted to but my guess is they didn't think it was a big deal by that point. Again the argument isn't whether Security handled itself well or not. Obviously they didn't handle the situation idealy. My point was only that other then Andrew there were no completely innocent people plucked out of the crowd. Which I still think is true.
Is ridiculous. Lets all just lay down as Big Brother watches our every move. could help us in this regard, but as fans, we have no grounds to demand to see the video evidence. [/QUOTE] Are you saying that a suspected criminal has no right to see the evidence being used to charge him? I beg to differ, my son. Second, there's tossing people for giving them attitude. [/QUOTE] Yes, lets never speak our minds for fear of arrest, or expulsion. I was always taught that respect wasn't an automatic, it should be earned. None of us think that's constructive, and it's clearly the root of Steve and Tomek getting yanked. That may be a tougher nut to crack...[/QUOTE] Why would it be so hard? If I see something I disagree with, and say what is on my mind to the person I disagree with, why should I be arrested/booted? For not breaking the law? Because someone doesnt like what I say, I get arrested or ejected? Not me man. Let em try and grab me. I'll whip out my mad ninja skills and go all Jackie Chan on their punk asses.
Re: Re: Re: Mayor Reinsdorf and the Politburo So, even though it is wrong, we should sit back and accept it because its "better" than what it was? NO! An injustice is an injustice, period. By your dumb@ss, Barrington logic, we should accept a new pile of sh!t because it doesn't smell as bad as the pile we had before. That is assinine. Wake up and smell the manure. I am certainly not attempting to start riots or incite violence, quite the contrary. My point is that unless these issues are handled and dealt with swiftly, the road you are headed for is that of violence and more negativity towards "those damned soccer hooligans." Do not sit back while dumbasses like those who claim to be the "liasons" to try to force you to accept the unacceptable with ridiculous logic. There is a better word for them...republicans. If you have had enough with the way we are treated, get involved. "Cast your vote" so to speak. If you sit back and do nothing like your "liasons" tell you to, then you have no right to complain about how you are treated.
They read it all over the P.A. for about an hour before the game starts as well. Which is why it's kinda funny, as we have about half of the items they announce as prohibited, with SF management's (albeit reluctant) blessings. Later, COZ
Re: Re: Re: Re: Mayor Reinsdorf and the Politburo I've read this post four times and I still can't see a single thing that came anywhere close to even a suggestion for a solution. Instead of insulting people who are trying their hardest to make things better for everyone why don't you make a suggestion as to what should be done.
Just that, as a negotiating tactic, coming in and saying "we think your security people are getting too jacked up by their own ego-fueled power trips, to the point where they seem to want to eject anyone who just looks at them funny" probably isn't going to work. Hence, harder. Later, COZ
I think we all agree the smoke looks great and is against the current rules. I think we also agree that innocent bystanders should not be tossed. I think it is a safe assumption that security will do "something" when the smoke goes off. So why not have a volunteer set off the smoke, step forward and get tossed out. We get smoke, security has their man (or woman) and innocent bystanders stay. Just remember to buy the guy a beer after the game So, who wants to go first on Friday?.
If there wasn't a camera rolling I might have spent the night in jail for battery. When my dad and friend Craig (who is a Chicago Cop) asked to see the tape they were told "it was against the law." I don't understand how it could possibly be against the law but then again I'm just a college student and I don't understand the complexities of stadium security. From my point of view it is a pretty double edged sword. At first they insisted that I threw the bottle, and they also claimed that the video proved it. Then when they "watched it frame by frame" it proved that I didn't throw it. Either way I cooperated the whole time and I didn't even resist the guy dragging me out and handcuffing me. It has been and always will be my opinion that anyone who has a high and tight hair cut and isn't currently serving in active duty with a branch of the military is a dipshit and I think the security supervisor proved my point. The other major issue here is if we are all following the rules layed out. I never would have been tossed if there wasn't a smoke bomb, and then a beer can, and then someone throwing a bottle. But I don't really see why a can of smoke is dangerous or poses a threat to anyone unless you count a terrible smell as being a dangerous threat. But throwing *#*#*#*# at security isn't really that great of an idea no matter what the situation is. I don't know what would have happened if I would have slugged the high and tight guy but I'm pretty sure it would have been pretty ugly. Chances are if someone from MDSC is in a physical fight everyone from MDSC is in the fight too whether its a good idea or not. That guy would have left with some bruises but we would have left with some police records and all of section 8 would have suffered. Overall, the situation sucks but I think some people are off the point here arguing about our freedoms. Don't taunt security next time a smoke can gets let off because you know there are going to be more of them regardless. Let them carry it away and we can continue being the best supporters in the league. I don't think we have ever accomplished anything by fighting security but that's just me. I seriously doubt the situation will change much because it seems like they are just looking for reasons to yank people out or get involved. It's just smoke. It isn't even a flare that causes fire to shoot out of the end. Like I said before, if it was Garcia there is a good chance I would be pretty messed up right now.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Mayor Reinsdorf and the Politburo Yeah, let's drag personal issues into this. What a good and productive idea. Nevermind I've basically eschewed everything Barrington except my street address growing up since before high school, but you wouldn't know that or even care to know,would you. Give me a break. Yep. I don't do any work at all to improve the situation. Question, where the fuck were you and your cohorts back in late September/early October when we first had meetings with everyone to discuss these issues? Where are you dealing with security and Fire management about section 8 every *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# week? And where the fuck are you helping out hours before and after games, throwing aside hanging out with friends or having a bite to eat to prepare the way for being able to do even the most basic-taken-for-granted shit we have at our disposal every game? Where are you with hard-earned money, a substantial percentage of income, mind you, that really should be used for things like bills or loans or savings spent on things for the section without question or second thought not just in season but all year? I've grown to be accustomed to being unappreciated by many, hated by some, and scorned by most all of the section, and you know what? I don't *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# care, and haven;t for a long time, because I realise if myself and Marcin and Coz and Jason and Don don't do it...nobody will. It's the price I pay for being dedicated so unquestioningly to making this "fabulous catastrophe" work. I don't give a crap what you or anyone thinks of me personally. What I do care about and won't stand for in even the smallest margin is your questioning my absolute and total commitment and "right" or qualifications to be involved in dealing with these issues. In that respect, fuck you and the horse you rode in on. When you show the kind of work and commitment the others listed have, I'll ignore the personal bull you mix in and respect your opinion again. Criticise the system and how crap like this is resolved if you want, but get involved and try to help by showing how committed we all are instead of throwing barbs over the goddamn internet every time something you dislike happens. It's an ongoing process, so please try to be a little more patient. You have NO IDEA the wall we are up against (and I mean the club too) with regard to Stadium Management, who is the real OZ behind the curtain, so to speak.