hello again, refs. question for you on where you draw the line when it comes to "fair charges" ("shoulder charges" or "shoulder-to-shoulder hits"). as i understand it, it's legal when trying to win 50-50 balls. i'd say i tend to do it fairly effectively. however, every once in a while, i'll get called for a foul. i can only think of two reasons: 1. some refs are not used to seeing shoulder-to-shoulder hits and mistake a legal play for an illegal one. 2. i did something differently in the 2-3 times i've had a foul called on me. since i can't help the former, i figure i'd ask about the latter. what do you look for in deciding whether or not to call a foul on a shoulder charge?
Off the top of my head, did the arm come into play? i.e. push, elbow, etc. Did you "dip" the shoulder? was it shoulder to shoulder, or more into another part of the body? and the force of the challenge, did you really "run him over", or was it just muscling him off the ball. For a quick answer, there ya go.
And for a quick non-ref answer, it could be that the Ref is trying to rein in the level of physicality in the game, to lessen the heat: Things that were OK ten minutes earlier may be a place to draw the line now to keep other players from escalating. Just as play is dynamic, the line for offense can be a little plastic/elastic as well. And it could be as simple as personal preference of the referee. It's been said before here: Just like field conditions are something you have to adjust your game to, so is the referee team. IMHO.
another consideration, as usual, is the level of play. are you playing adult open division? u18? u12? is this a rec league or highly competitive? do the players accept that level of physical play? law 12 states that it is illegal to charge an opponent. then we talk about a "fair charge". as you stated, shoulder to shoulder is usually allowed. but, in the epl you might get to seriously run hard into each other and have no call. in your rec league that same contact might get you a rc. basically, you can legally nudge a player away from the ball (within playing distance) with your shoulder (not arm). you cannot do it carelessly, recklessly, or with excessive force. your contact needs to be at the opponent's shoulder, not his back or chest, unless he is shielding the ball, which opens up your contact area on the back (not the spine) for legal contact.
Charging is legal unless, in the opinion of the referee, it is done in a careless, reckless or excessively forceful manner. Arms out, use of elbow becomes a push or a hold. My standards of charges. Careless Charge - not shoulder to shoulder, too close to the center of the back or chest Reckless Charge - coming in at an angle and/or speed that leaves the charging player out of position to attempt winning the ball after contact Excessive Force - initiating contact that is extremely violent and likely to produce injury (leading with an elbow or knee, driving the shoulder through a player blind to the oncoming charge - esp from behind) I see lots of careless charges and a few reckless charges. Excessively forceful charges tend to be retaliatory in my matches and I work hard to avoid temperatures getting that hot so very few and far between. I don't care if one or both players go down so long as there's no extra-curricular activity while on the ground (which does not fall under my definition of the charge being fair or foul but is certainly something to keep an eye on). Just one referee's opinion.
the last two times i was called for it, the defender and i were more or less side-by-side chasing down the ball (within playing distance), so it's not like i ran either of them over. but i'm able to generate quite a bit of lateral force--both times, the other player went down, so i guess that could also figure into it. it's just a little frustrating to be punished for showing a little more strength than the opponent. not that either of those guys dove, but i hate divers. i don't do it myself. when someone muscles me, i usually manage to hold my ground. (on the other hand, i guess i'm always a little surprised when someone goes down like that. it's not like i'm an especially big guy.)
What is your approach? In my experience, a wide unnatural step toward the opponent before contact will get called everytime.
I view it this way: there's only room for one person to posses the ball, so when two people try to get to that one space, sooner or later they will bump into each other. That's fair so far. things I look for to determine if there's a fould: - elbow comes up - shoulder dips down - path to the ball, where you going to the ball or not to the ball but towards the player - how old and skilled are the players - do I feel the need to tighten physcial control? - do I feel the ability to loosen physical control?
I try to think about intent as well - for me, the first question I ask is, what was your intent with the shoulder? Did you a) use your shoulder so you could play the ball, or b) use your shoulder so your opponenet couldn't play the ball. B is always going to be a foul, but A usually is not. If it is A though, it can still be a foul if the force was excessive - as you suggest, an opponent going to ground is likely an indicator that you were pushing back too hard. If it seems to me you are more focused on the shoulder charge than the ball, that may also indicate a foul, though then I will bear in mind size, strength, balance, skill, and how hard the opponent is pushing you. Those are the basic elements I look for. As for specific physical clues, if a shoulder is lowered right before contact, it is almost definitely a foul and likely a card (according to skill level) - you've clued me in that you mean to deck your opponent. Coming in too fast or at an angle that intends to play the man and not the ball is another clue I look to for fouls. Likewise, pushing off your outside leg in to the other player in an upward motion is a clue that you mean to knock him over.
i'm not sure that's the correct distinction to draw. (otherwise, you should call obstruction whenever someone with possession shields the ball from another player.)
ok. i can see how this is could be a close call. e.g., if i get that half-step in front of the defender, i'll take a step in--sorta to shield the ball. there could be contact in that case, and possibly enough to knock someone down. ----O(ball)---- -----<-ME---- ----D--------- depending on where the ref is standing and how closely he's watching, it could look like i just threw my body into the guy instead of seeing that i cut in front of him.
A extract of something I cobbled together for a high-school referee assn presentation: Charging is essentially rushing at another player, resulting in body contact. Without the essential contact, the foul may be jumping at the opponent, but it cannot be charging. The difficulty for the referee is that there are fair charges and fouls. A fair charge is a shoulder-to-shoulder attempt to knock an opponent off the ball which is performed with at least one foot on the ground, with the arms in close to the body, and with the ball close enough to both that it can be played by either; what we call “playing distance”. Clearly, a fair charge meeting these criteria can result in one of the players falling down - the “big kid, little kid” problem, but if the charge is truly fair, this doesn’t matter and no foul should be called. Players with the ball can also be engaged from behind so long as such contact is not reckless or involve excessive force; the player with the ball is permitted to “shield” so the player trying to win the ball is permitted a certain amount of physical contact in an effort to get possession away from the attacker. (1) The Law does require that a charge be directed towards the area of the shoulder and not towards the center of the opponent’s back (the spinal area): in such a case, the referee should recognize that the charge is at minimum reckless and potentially even violent. (3) When young players are involved, a challenge from behind is more likely to be deemed a foul by the referee. As players get older, play is more physical, and more bumping is usually permitted. Again, the use of hands and/or arms will change this action from a charge to what will probably be judged to be an illegal push. (1) References: 1. SOCCER-COACH-L LOTG COLLECTIVE – Law 12 – Fouls and Misconduct. Updated February 26, 1998 2. US Soccer position paper. Fouls, Misconduct, and the Restart of Play. August 18, 2006. 3. USSF Advice To Referees On The Laws Of The Game. August 2007.
Well, no - when someone is "shielding," he is (ostensibly) doing so so that he can play the ball. As I understand it, the question had to do with an opponent who already has the ball. If you challenge with the intent of your playing the ball, that is generally not a foul. If you challenge with the intention of making it so that he can not play, that is generally a foul. It is, at least, how I think about shoulder charges at game speed, and works very well.
thanks, andy. that is how i've always understood it, which is why i've been trying to figure out how i got called for the fouls. boylan, i think my point is maybe more aesthetic. when a player shields the ball, he is not simply playing the ball. he is positioning himself in the way of another player--positioning himself so as to prevent his opponent from playing the ball--in that sense, he's playing another player--indeed, he doesn't even need to touch the ball to legally shield. nevertheless, i do appreciate the input. i did ask, after all, what you guys look for.
If you get a half a step on him, that is not enough to cut him off without you creating contact, but you're right, depending on the refs position and angle, it could be seen in several ways.
My ref keeps telling me this is illegal but every forum and rule book I've checked says it is so what should I do? (I only use this to gain possession of the ball)
He also calls fouls on other thing the laws of the game clearly state are legal, but he is FIFA certified.
For me this has nothing to do whether the ball is 50/50 or not. If your pathway to the ball would cause your shoulder to contact another player's shoulder while the ball is within playing distance of both of you, and you do not use excessive force in making contact, you are fine in my book. However, you will see a great deal of variability in how referees treat this. And spectators will throw fits as well. So as a player you need to get a feel for what works in any particular game.
This is probably about the least understood area. Generally speaking contact while you are attempting to play the ball is not unfair if its not careless (or worse in the heirarchy). Here is the most common mistakes I see. 1. It is not legal to "hit". What is different about this tackle is that it is legal intentional contact. You can push the player off the ball, as long as its done with due care for the safety of the other player. 2. If you are taller than the opponent, you are going to have to be very careful of where your arm is to avoid a foul. 3. Putting your arm in front of the opponent to impede his forward movement is illegal. 4. The player must be within playing distance of the ball. If he is dribbling and pushed the ball a few yards ahead prior to contact, its not a fair charge. 5. The area of contact (and force of any impact) is going to be the primary considerations in determining safety. Contact to the spine, neck, or head is not going to pass, ever. Contact to shoulder and (for women) to the hip is generally going to be accepted.
First, YoYoing asks, "My ref keeps telling me this is illegal but every forum and rule book I've checked says it is so what should I do? (I only use this to gain possession of the ball)" I think the generic answer is that, when he's the ref for today's game, don't do that. Yes, he's wrong. There isn't anything you can do about that, so just adjust. NFHS rules have a pretty good description of what kind of charge is fair. (Rule 12.4.1, for those reading along at home), "An allowable fair charge is where players make shoulder-to-shoulder contact in an upright position, within playing distance of the ball, have at least one foot on the ground and their arms held close to their body." A charge can not, ITOOTR, be violent, but it can still be strong, hard, forceful enough to cause the opponent to fall down. I will add that sometimes there is a disparity in height between players such that any attempt to use your shoulder is going to end up contacting the shorter player's head or the arm of the taller player. This is still legal.