Facts about conservative candidate Howard Dean

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by BenReilly, Nov 11, 2003.

  1. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    "The truth, however, is that as a conservative Democratic governor, Dean really did do what Gephardt says he did, and his shifting attempts to wiggle off that hook have made his conduct an issue in a Democratic race that grows more serious by the week."

    Tom Oliphant, Boston Globe
    September 30, 2003

    "I completely agree with your assessment about the importance of this vote to national security and to the future of Sino-American relations long into the future…On the Democratic side… [we face] the enormous pressure which will be brought to bear by the labor movement during an election year ."
    [Source: Dean letter to President Clinton, 12/29/99]

    "Howard Dean, the candidate Republicans love to depict as the heart-throb of the loony left, in fact won conservative praise in the mid-1990s for his agreement with Republican plans for deep Medicare spending cuts. The record shows Dean, who as Vermont governor was serving as head of the National Governors' Association, endorsed cuts of the magnitude Gingrich envisioned. He did so while the bills were moving through the Senate.

    [Marie Cocco, Newsday, 9/30/03]


    "Newt Gingrich, the conservative agitator and former speaker of the House, has come to the aid of -- get this -- Howard Dean in his catfight with Representative Richard A. Gephardt over Medicare spending.

    "In the great Medicare wars of 1995-96, Mr. Gephardt and other Congressional Democrats hammered Mr. Gingrich for proposing to extract $270 billion from Medicare. Mr. Gingrich insisted it was simply a reduction in the rate of growth, not a cut, as the Democrats charged.

    "Now Mr. Gephardt is attacking Dr. Dean for statements he made in the 1990's that he, too, supported major reductions in Medicare spending. Dr. Dean has since asserted he was talking about slowing the growth rate, not cuts, a distinction Mr. Gingrich pounced on immediately, leaping to Dr. Dean's defense.

    [Source: New York Times, 9/21/03]

    deanfacts.com
     
  2. obie

    obie New Member

    Nov 18, 1998
    NY, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All these things do is prove that the "Dean's too liberal" rant that Bush operatives will be spouting from February to November should be dismissed as desperate talk of a directionless Administration. Thanks, Ben.
     
  3. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    The problem with Dean is that he's either too liberal or too conservative on all the wrong issues. Too liberal on military/foreign policy issues. Too conservative on health and labor issues. What a stinker!
     
  4. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    This is ridiculous Gephardt propaganda. Dean knows that the Medicare system is broken, because it's a tax-funded program that lines the 23% profit-margined pockets of the medical and pharmaceutical industry. This is something that no Republican OR Democrat will address, because everybody's having their cake and eating it,too.

    If you want a real idea on how to reduce healthcare costs, read here: http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/Record_-_Prescription_Drug_Costs.pdf?docID=815

    When the entire pharmaceutical industry tries to sue you out of existence, you must be doing something right.
     
  5. Dante

    Dante Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Binghamton, NY
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Like any politician Dean will cave into the pressure and do what the people who put him there demand, and I'm not talking about those who voted for him either.

    I don't see any difference between Dean and any other politician.
     
  6. joseph pakovits

    joseph pakovits New Member

    Apr 29, 1999
    fly-over country
    In other words, he's "Clinton, Mk. II" only without the raging horniness and strong-willed wife, apparently.

    Sadly, the Dems think the only chance they have is to occupy the space in the center-right that used to be held by moderate Republicans. Given the stranglehold of corporate money in elections these days, they're probably right. Still, even given that virtually anyone would be better than Bush, how depressing this is.
     
  7. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Hold on here, Dean's being mischaracterized. This guy's the only politician in U.S. history who's taken on the healthcare industry and won. He's a revolutionary in this field.

    He was also the first candidate to attack Bush on Iraq. He's the one who made it ok and even hip to do so.

    And he's maintained his pro-gun rights and pro-death penalty positions even though it can only hurt him in the primaries, because that's what he believes him.

    And his progressive postition on gay rights is lightyears ahead of his competitors.
     
  8. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Dean's running mate?

    [​IMG]
     
  9. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Obviously Ben and I have cast our lot. Who are the rest of you fence-straddlers backing?
     
  10. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    That would be LBJ, actually. I'm sure you've heard of him.
     
  11. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    ???

    The healthcare industry loves Medicare and Medicaid.
     
  12. joseph pakovits

    joseph pakovits New Member

    Apr 29, 1999
    fly-over country
    OK, I must amend my post to read:

    "In other words, he's 'Clinton, Mk. II' only without the raging horniness and strong-willed wife and a better record against the health care industry, apparently."

    I gotta give Slick Willie this, though. He was a moderate Republican at heart but he also knew he had liberals by the balls because, frankly, where else are they going to go if they don't like whatever center-right candidate the Dems throw at them? Vote Green? Ha ha ha. Dean certainly has his own quirks but overall, it seems like he is just a less weasely version of Clinton who also took on the healthcare industry and didn't entirely cave into the gay-hatas in his own wishy-washy way.

    All this, of course, is not to say that Gephardt is the Dems' best possible choice. Just that the Dem leadership obviously wants a center-right candidate and that narrows their possibilities. The only question for them now is "Who can raise the most corporate $$$? to combat Bush's obscenely gargantuan war chest".
     
  13. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    They tried pretty f-ing hard to stop it.
     
  14. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    No they didn't. They lobbied hard to control it, and they succeeded. It was something that every industry dreams of: a multi-billion dollar government subsidy that legitimizes your business model.
     
  15. joseph pakovits

    joseph pakovits New Member

    Apr 29, 1999
    fly-over country
    Not as much as they love being able to gouge you in a "free market".

    Still, Ben is right that they were in a panic over those programs and pulled all the usual red-baiting and other tactics that they did on Clinton's single-payer healthcare scheme 30 years later.

    I'd say that Dean will be an interesting experiment for the Dems. Can they legitimately pull off proffering a socially and economically conservative candidate while ceding the military/foreign policy conservative ground to the far right? It sounds like a smart bet if they don't bungle it. They won't lose liberal votes because liberals are a captive audience. It's not like any cadidate with the "Dem" label is going to win over the Axis Alex crowd that makes up macho-military portion of the Right. But they may be able to successfully compete in some traditionally Reep social and economic issues with the proper candidate.
     
  16. Finnegan

    Finnegan Member

    Sep 5, 2001
    Portland Oregon
    For the record I support Dean, have supported him for over a year and a half.

    Now that is out of the way...I think what is going to be interesting is the race to define him next year. Those us who pay attention (.01% of the US Population) and bother to post in political forums know that Dean is an interesting mix of ideologies spanning the left spectrum. However 99% of America doe snot.

    The real race is going to start in Febuaryish and will be who defines him first. Some questions/thoughts...

    When will Bush run his first ad characterizing Dean as a whacky pinko? If he were smart he would get out early and often ala Gray Davis did against Riordan in 2000 in Cali. Define your opponent while he is still fighting another battle.

    Will the media buy into the Bush teams label of Dean (like they did with Gore in 200) or will the "free" media contradict what the paid media is saying?

    Will Dean have the $$$ to end the Demo battle early enough to start fighting the real war?

    Will independent groups like MoveOn and Soros's group defend the exposed flank of Dems early next year long enough for them to finish their primary battle?

    Is 200 Million too much? You can only buy so much air time. You can only mail so many pieces. Is Bush raising so much money that he risks a backlash against his team for their over-saturation?
     
  17. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I am beggining to think that Dean wouldn't be a bad candidate if it wasn't for his wacky positions on foreign policy and taxes. On some issues he makes more sense than any other democrat.
     
  18. edcrocker

    edcrocker Member+

    May 11, 1999
    What reason is there to believe that Dean's position on foreign policy and trade are wacky? "Wacky" is a stong word. I think of Lyndon Larouche's (sp?) policies as wacky.
     
  19. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    ???

    Dean cut spending in Vermont, capped taxes and balanced the budget.
     
  20. edcrocker

    edcrocker Member+

    May 11, 1999
    What do you mean? And why do you say that? I tend to agree with Dean on the issues you have mentioned.

    Ben, do you mean that, in a general election, Dean's positions on the issues you mentioned (military/foreign policy, health and labor) would help him less than Gephardt's positions on those same issues? Or do you mean that you disagree with Dean's positions on said issues? Or do you mean both?

    I ask because a number of people in the media should do a better job of distinguishing between, on the one hand, predictions about future events and, on the other hand, evaluations of policy. Said distinction is overly simplistic, but it can be fruitful in some contexts.

    When one says he is "too liberal" or "too conservative," some others interpret that as a condemnation of his policies. Of course, it is hugely important to critically evaluate a candidate's policies, record and political philosophy. However, my experience is that when someone says he is "too liberal" or "too conservative," it tends to short-circuit the discussion. And the merits of the policies end up not getting discussed in a reasonable fashion.

    This is a bit of a tangent, but I’m seeing a pattern in contemporary discourse that is troubling me. The words "liberal" and "conservative" mean different things to different people. And sometimes they mean more than one thing to a person. And often the meaning is vague. I think it is much better, when evaluating policies, to use words like "good" and "bad," "reasonable" and "unreasonable" rather than words like "liberal" and "conservative" or expressions like "too liberal" and "too conservative." The good/bad approach often makes it clearer what point the person making the claim wants to get across. It also seems to help advance the discussion.

    Also, when the word "liberal" is frequently used with a negative connotation, the usage can have bad consequences. It can mean that a good political philosophy or idea gets dismissed without its getting a fair shake in the market-place of ideas.

    As for the forecast about which candidate (Gephardt or Dean), were he to win the nomination, would have a better chance of beating Bush. I think it is really unclear which of those two candidates would have a better chance of beating Bush. In contrast, it is clear that either Dean or Gephadt would have a better chance of beating Bush than Kucinich or Sharpton would. That is, we are strongly justified in believing that.

    But Dean or Gephardt? It is more murky. Dean has the internet and has shown an ability at fundraising. Moreover, my impression, for whatever it is worth, is that the majority of likely voters will find Dean more engaging than Gephardt. And the candidate that the majority of potential voters find more engaging seems to have some affect on voting behavior.

    However, Gephardt would have a better shot at winning Missouri, a swing state with a fairly significant number of electoral votes. And perhaps a fairly significant number of voters will weigh fairly heavily foreign policy experience, and Gephardt has more of that than Dean does.

    On the other hand, the election is likely to be close, only 50% of eligible voters have been voting, and there is some evidence that Dean would be better than Gephardt at convincing those who haven't been voting in recent elections to get out and vote for Dean. But how many people is that going to be? Enough to make a difference?

    Also, who would do better with the people who voted for Nader in the last election? And would that be a big enough number to tip the general election one way or another?
     
  21. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Come on, man. For today's borrow-and-spend Republicans, that's the height of "wacky."

    Balancing the budget? That's crazy, man.
     
  22. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm on the Dean team:

    1. He's fiscally conservative.

    2. He supports the rights of gun owners.

    3. He's actually got a plan to reduce the number of people in this country without health coverage.
     
  23. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    You mean this guy:

    http://larouchein2004.net

    I guess you are right. This guy Larouche is a wacko. I guess I was using wacky about Dean to ilustrate the point that I strongly dissagree with his positions in those particular issues.

    BTW: I didn't say trade. I said taxes. I dissagree with his ideas to raise the taxes again on the working class, the middle class, and small business. And in foreign policy I dissagree with his view that we should have let Saddam Hussein continue to do his thing in the Middle East.

    But my point was that on other issues he is sounding more reasonable than the democratic establishment that is trying to defeat him. I got a kick out of the way the other democrats tried to play the 'political correctness' card against him because he mentioned the confederate flag. But they missed his point that unless the democrats can reach out to blue collar southerners (confederate flag or not) they will probably lose the election.
     

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