Fact: Jones Did Not Dive

Man, I knew this would be a fun thread the second the infraction happened.

Of course there was a foul and a red card was due under the circumstances, but that was possibly the biggest flop ever by a US player. It was so bad that to call it laughable would be a disservice. We rewinded it and watched it 5 times and laughed harder each time. It was wretched acting on Jones' part.

He easily could have just fallen down in a normal fashion and it wouldn't have changed the outcome at all. Instead, he flails and flops like guy that just got shot in the back while riding a horse. He really needs to work on it, because in CONCACAF, you don't want to get a reputation of any sort.

 

OK, I just saw the trailing knee, which I hadn't focused on. there was a touch. I'm less aggravated about the flop, I suppose. But still, sort of pathetic.

 

You really think Messi or Rooney wouldn't fall when fouled from behind and then losing the ball in an otherwise clear goal scoring situation?

 

Just dive (pun intended) into the middle of the thread without reading any of the posts and post nonsense. Well done!

It's already been irrefutably established that he was fouled. Whether he embellished or could have stayed on his feet is not clear.

 

Going back to the clip that started this thread: I think the straight red is actually more clear in the live-action shot showing the whole field than in the close-up slomo of the challenge.

It's obvious from the flow of the play that Jones is breaking in behind the last line of the defenders after they accidently knock the ball off one another and into his path. Jones touches it past and the defender slide tackles from behind well after the ball is gone.

I think the reason he doesn't argue is that the defender knew what he was doing, and he did what he meant to do.

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EDIT: just read MassRef's post a couple pages back -- what he said

 

Yes, I do. Messi stays on his feet, which is one of the things that will make him one of the greatest players of all time. He never goes down in the box or otherwise. He just stays on his feet and scores goals.

 

Yes, well, I admitted that I was wrong. But I suppose you don't have the class to leave it at that, you want to pile on to feel good about yourself.

Regardless, if you don't believe that whatever Jermaine Jones did, he at least embellished then I must be talking to Mrs. Jermain Jones. Give me a break.

 

Jones would have had a better chance to score had he stayed on his feet. Did they score off the free kick? No. It was just him and the goalie, and although his first touch wasn't the best, I would have taken the odds with him staying on his feet. That and the glory

 

You know what I hate worse than diving?

Losing.

 

I don't know, I think that it was pretty clear that he embellished. For a second I thought he was Italian.

He had a third option available to him which would have been to just fall down without the 'I've been hit by a tazer gun' look on his face.

 

And this is an important point. When diving is a part of your game, you have a decision going through your mind in the split second when you should be going for goal. Messi and a few players like him have the total mindset to stay on his feet and have a go at goal. Many more players are forcing themselves to make split second decisions, forcing indecision on themselves.

 

I'll stretch this a bit and say a contributing factor to why MLS is such a rough league and why the US so often produces fewer skill player and more hacks is because of conversations just like this. A guy gets fouled and we're more upset about arguing whether or not after he was fouled he could have struggled to maintain his footing or if he did not fall down inconspicuously enough than we are being upset about the foul in the first place. The diving police seem much more vigilant than the people who would like to see bad tackles eliminated from the game.

 

Right, but this thread is not about dirty tackles. I wish both could be eliminated from the game.

 

Thanks for posting. I couldn't see the contact before, but now I see it. NOT A DIVE!

 

Have you considered that he replied to your post before reading to the end of the thread?

Even if he hadn't, you admitted you were wrong after going on for several posts about how much of a disgrace Jones was and should not be allowed to play for the rest of the tournament and how those of us who actually saw what happened were putting ourselves through ridiculous contortions.

You did all of this without bothering to watch the ********ing video that we all were talking about and without knowing what the ******** you were talking about.

Yep, MarioKempes must be the one who is lacking in class.

 

As a US fan i will take it, but i have to seriously question the intelligence of anyone who thinks for a second Jones didn't take a fall on that play after he made a heavy touch. Contact, if any was extremely slight and the rip cord parachute reaction to it was obviously overdramatic.

 

Lol...this is a contact sport. Contact does not always equal a foul. Did the Jamaican go for the ball? Probably not. Did he try to knock Jones from behind? Absolutely!

Was Jones going down? I don't think so...I think he went down on his own, and that my friends...is a dive!

So, the first point; Contact = foul. No.

As an example, a player's arm makes contact with another player's face. The other player then stops, puts his hands on his face as if Mike Tyson just bitch slapped him and he falls.

There was contact, right? The arm touched his face, right? I'm just trying to illustrate one point here that has been made that contact does not always equal a foul.

On to the second issue; In the end, the fact that the Jamaican player came in from behind and tried to foul Jones is what got him the red card after Jones' incredible acting job portrayed as soon as he felt the player behind him touch his heel.

The way he flew threw the skies after the touch leads me to believe he pulled a Klinsmann a-la 1990 WC final vs Argentina.

The real question here should be; Can a player still dive even when he is fouled upon? Yes, I do believe so. And this is the perfect example of it.

And let's add to that; How many times have we seen players getting ready to dive just a second before the foul is even committed? They see the foul coming and they are already planning to make a meal out of it to ensure the ref sees this. You see them drag their feet to get it caught on a defender or a keepers arm. You see them falling before contact has been made. You see them grabbing their throat and falling to the ground as a few fingers touch their neck while arms are flying wild.

Play acting...Happens all the time.

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcX2yBNh0c0"]YouTube - ‪Inter vs FC Barcelona (3-1) Messi Diver 6th min‬‏[/ame]

 

Your examples however ignore the fact that Jones back heel was visibly shoved by the contact. You really want to tell me that if someone shoves your *heel* up while you running balls-to-the-wall cannot possibly shove you off balance? That is no comparison to faking injury after slight contact. Jones did not fake any kind of injury. He fell off balance and threw his arms up in appeal for a call.

Again: Watch it again in real-time to see how hard he was running. Now, could it be he let himself fall? Possibly. But certainly not *certainly*. And over-dramatic? Possibly. But it doesn't sink to the level of true play-acting like faking an injury.

A true dive means you had to try to fall, not fail to try to stay up; If you need extra effort to stay up, it's not a dive, it's a fall. There's a reason we have 2 different words for these things.

 

The only intent that's important is the defender deciding to intentionally foul Jones instead of giving up a breakaway.

And once again, anyone that is so insensed with Jones' actions must be absolutely appalled at Bedoya's...

It all seems more a result of fans taking the FSC announcers incorrect assertions as gospel instead of thinking for themselves.

 

Well, if he didn't read my post, maybe he shouldn't criticize me for not reading the thread!

And indeed, I watched the video, but as I said, did not see the defender's trailing knee until watching it again.

I thought it would be enough to say, "hey everyone, I was wrong". But apparently, some people see a freebie and take it because their mothers' didn't tell them how wonderful they were enough.

PS, I don't know what number "several" is for you, but I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be "two".

 

He is fouled, then plants his right foot, and as he is about to step down with his left leg, someone shot him.

Sad day , I didn't realize snipers were in the stadium.

 

The Jamaicans would have complained bitterly if it was a bad call/diving.

 

One play that's easy to remember is Puyol on Robben in the World Cup final. Robben stayed on his feet, Robben didn't get a clear chance because he was slowed down, Holland lost. Food for thought.

They scored off the red card though. And the US has a better chance to win if Jones takes a dive than if he stays on his feet. That's why there is so much diving in soccer. .

 

Interesting that some think you can dive even with a foul.

Without descending into linguistics, from my POV, this is not true. If you are going to use the term "dive" that means that there wasn't any contact and the player is trying to get a foul/card/PK called when none is deserved.

A dive = simulation and is a card-able offense.

Jones didn't dive. Bedoya did.

Overselling a foul (which Jones did) is another matter entirely.