Fact: Jones Did Not Dive

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by narko, Jun 19, 2011.

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  1. narko

    narko New Member

    Jul 16, 2007
    North Carolina
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khbDD-6zHsI"]YouTube - ‪USA vs Jamaica Dive with slow motion‬‏[/ame]

    His left ankle is clipped by Taylor's knee at the 35 second mark.

    Great call by the referee.
     
  2. Nermalthecat

    Nermalthecat Member

    Mar 1, 2001
    Avon, CT
    He certainly made sure to sell the foul, but he got clipped.
     
  3. Ghosting

    Ghosting Member+

    Aug 20, 2004
    Pendleton, OR
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just because he got clipped doesn't mean he didn't dive... and just because he did dive does not mean it was an incorrect call.

    From what I can see...
    • He made a bad touch and was going to lose the ball no matter what
    • He got clipped
    • He embelished with an ugly dive
    • The foul was rightly called
    • The defender was rightly sent off
     
  4. Heist

    Heist Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly as he should have.
    Great game from him overall.
     
  5. miked9

    miked9 Member+

    May 4, 2000
    Philadelphia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I suspected it wasn't an out-and-out dive (meaning no or no significant contact) because not a single player on Jamaica complained about the foul.
     
  6. ctoa23

    ctoa23 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 25, 2007
    E&G Forum
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He sold the shit out of it, but he was definitely clipped from behind. I'd be interested to see what the guys in the Referee forum think about this.
     
  7. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Was it a foul? Yes. Was it a denial of a GS opportunity and a deserved red card? Yes.

    Could Jones have continued running without falling. Most likely. Thus did he intentionally fall to the ground in order to embellish the foul (dive)? Probably.

    Was it "simulation," and thus an infraction of the rules of the game deserving a yellow card? Absolutely not. Simulation requires that no foul be committed. There was a foul.

    Ref should have given the red, "talked" to Jones about embellishment, then reassured Jones that he can call the game and spot fouls without the players overeating to collisions.

    Thanks for posting this. The commentators made it sound absolute that it wasn't a foul. They were wrong. I'll eat my hat for believing those idiots AGAIN for some stupid reason.
     
  8. Gabriel_Ferrari_F50

    May 3, 2007
    Who cares if there was minimal contact, he could have continued easy. If someone is tugging on your shirt so bad or knocks you enough that is going to be hard to sell the play, then go down. I understand that. But for ----- sake don't make Americans look like pansies- WE ARE NOT.

    I'd rather lose as fair as possible than dive like that.

    However you frame the details, he could have continued and instead he fell down like he was shot in the back.
     
  9. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Interestingly divergent point of view from the Spanish-language commentators. The English commentators on Eurosoprt thought it was an open-and-shut case for a red, no controversy at all. And they didn't think it really meant much. "The USA have this game in hand at any rate, only poor finishing is still keeping the scoreline close..."
     
  10. Heist

    Heist Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I disagree completely. If you are running that fast any contact can easily send you to the ground. Its nearly impossible to tell for anyone who isn't the one being clipped. Could he have *tried* to stay up instead of flailing his arms, sure. My guess is an attempt to stay up wouldn't have worked, but as I said, unless you are him, its really hard to know, so I don't trust my judgement here.
     
  11. furby

    furby Member

    Mar 25, 2003
    What bad touch? He played the ball in behind their defenders and was slicing through the defense at full speed. A weighted touch ahead to get up to full speed and break behind the defense is the right play there. Donovan does it all the time.

    I don't see an ugly dive there and I'm not sure I even see embellishment. At full speed, even slight contact will throw you significantly off balance.

    The most telling clue here is the reaction of the players involved. The involved Jamaican player did not argue - he felt the contact, and knowing that he had fouled a player heading straight on to goal without getting any contact, made no excuses or complaints.

    Jones doesn't appeal for the call. He knew the call was cut and dry.

    The announcers were morons about this, and from what little I've seen on the boards a lot of fans went right along with them.
     
  12. Gabriel_Ferrari_F50

    May 3, 2007
    You have got to be kidding me. Lionel Messi is tugged, shoved, knocked and he doesn't go to ground. Have you played soccer before? I mean you know you can still love the US MNT and respect Jones' skill but call him out on a pathetic dive.
     
  13. Heist

    Heist Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've played soccer a lot, but I'm not good enough to be running as fast as Jones and have someone clip my heel.
    Messi is very good at keeping his feet. He's got a low center of gravity and he really seems to pride himself on always trying to stay up. Good for him. Jones is tall, lanky, and I can't say I've seen enough of him to see if he does everything he can to stay up when he gets tripped. Messi is also one of the best in the world at lots of things, keeping his feet is one of them. It was absolutely not a dive. A dive is like what Charlie Davies did against RSL the other night. Flailing his arms is about all Jones did. I'm not going to begrudge him for that. I'm not even going to begrudge him for not trying to stay up. If he somehow had been able to, all that would do is perhaps not get the foul called or not get the guy the red. It is unlikely that he would have been able regain his footing and keep the ball and not be run down by one of the other Jamaican players.
     
  14. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United
    Aug 3, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    [​IMG]

    It was more like his trailing left leg was trapped under the Jamaican player's knee. Not many people could stay on their feet after this.

    It was clearly a foul. It wasn't a dive. It may have been embellished, but it's not clear. I don't know the Jamaican player's intent, but it doesn't matter.

    It was a DOGSO, so the ref had no choice but to give a red card.
     
  15. salsa_caliente

    salsa_caliente New Member

    Nov 11, 2009
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Getting clipped like that when running at full speed does affect your immediate range of motion. It caused him to stumble just the slightest, and he slowed down just enough in that split second that the ball got away from him. At that point, he could either stay on his feet and be beaten to the ball by the keeper, or he could go down easy and get the call (because he WAS fouled, in that the contact, from behind, caused him to lose his advantage).

    What he did was cynical, but it was also smart, and Donovan and Dempsey would do that same (in fact, they HAVE).
     
  16. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's my impression too. I've been hit harder by light breezes.

    An obvious dive.
     
  17. Ghosting

    Ghosting Member+

    Aug 20, 2004
    Pendleton, OR
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dude... just watch the replay. There is no way he was going to beat Ricketts to that ball regardless of whether or not he's fouled.
    :rolleyes:
     
  18. Heist

    Heist Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also, all of the things are way way different from your heel getting clipped from behind. I'm not a great attacking player, but I've also been able to shrug off tugs, shoves, and knocks many times in my career. A clip from behind is just so different from all of the things you list, they aren't even similar situations. I haven't ever seen Messi shrug off a clip.
     
  19. Ghosting

    Ghosting Member+

    Aug 20, 2004
    Pendleton, OR
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ^^^ Exactly
     
  20. Skevin

    Skevin Member+

    Aug 9, 2009
    Texas
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Czechia
    Haha this basically sums up the whole play
     
  21. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not very good at Spanish though. After the replay, it certainly sounded like the guy said "a dive, yes?" But then something else happened and they didn't show the replay again and they moved on.

    Maybe someone with better Spanish skills could help me?
     
  22. Heist

    Heist Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looking at the clip again, the US was lucky the Jamaican even went in for the tackle. No chance Jones gets to that ball. It was a very heavy touch. Still a foul, still a red, still not a dive (although there is some embellishing), but a lucky play for the US.
    All in all, I think the US wins this game no matter what. This bonehead play by Jamaica just made it easier.
     
  23. yankthisyank'swank

    Oct 13, 2010
    If the Jamaican did not tackle Jones from behind, then he wouldn't have received the red card (at that exact time).

    Thank you for posting this video.

    It would be nice to see all those that were badmouthing Jones around 3:30 cst today admit that they were wrong about the contact/foul. What's worse (now that this video is out) is that, instead of badmouthing Jones for "diving", they badmouth his reaction to an intentional tackle from behind during a goal scoring opportunity.
     
  24. UPinSLC

    UPinSLC Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    SL,UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    lol at the rationalization from some fans in this thread, i've been "clipped" harder by some of the 10 year kids i used to coach.

    it was a complete dive. hence the reason he goes to ground a couple steps AFTER he gets "clipped."
     
  25. BSGuy321

    BSGuy321 Member

    Sep 2, 2008
    Great play Jones. Man of the Match.
     

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