Extranjeros en la seleccion en general? Not RDL Approved

Discussion in 'Mexico' started by Deleted USer, Sep 3, 2002.

  1. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Extranjeros en la seleccion?

    Es una tema que causa mucha polemica...

    pero quiero ver que piensan ustedes sobre algunos extranjeros en nuestro futbol.

    Uds. ya saben mi postura sobre esta tema....y saben que estoy en contra







    (ADVERTENCIA: Si no saben sobre este tema, es mejor callarse y enterarse)
     
  2. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    damn.. a couple typos in the poll..
     
  3. Various Styles

    Various Styles Member+

    Mar 1, 2000
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Extranjeros en la seleccion?

    Caballero should not be in the poll since he is no longer a foreigner in Mexico. As far as my vote goes. I choose Zinha. He is the type of player that we havent been able to get for a long time.
     
  4. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Pinhiero (25;1997-presente) declaro en febrero que desea sacar la nacionalidad y que le encantaria jugar con Mexico. Todavia no hace los tramites para sacar la nacionalidad y dijo que con todo el escandalo (Caballero), prefiere esperarse un tiempo.

    Zinha (25;1998-presente) se acaba de hacerse Mexicano. Declaro el mes pasado que desea que lo tomen en cuenta para la seleccion

    Caballero (31:1995-presente) ha jugado con la seleccion. No se ya cuento tiempo tiene pero su carrera ya esta por terminar.

    Leando (24:1999-presente) no ha dicho nada sobre el tema. Pero hay rumores que desea sacar la nacionalidad.
     
  5. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Re: Extranjeros en la seleccion?

    Its my poll so he stays.

    I respect your position.. But i have one question... why now? Why werent you all over him when he got his citizenship last year. Is it because he just started to perform this season? He has not been consistant and that is a fact.. not an opinion.
     
  6. Various Styles

    Various Styles Member+

    Mar 1, 2000
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    ************

    Its my poll so he stays.

    :confused:

    I respect your position.. But i have one question... why now? Why werent you all over him when he got his citizenship last year. Is it because he just started to perform this season? He has not been consistant and that is a fact.. not an opinion.

    What are you talking about ??? All i said is that Caballero is now Mexican and doesnt count as a foreigner and thats a fact not an opinion :)
     
  7. Capitan Galan

    Capitan Galan New Member

    Aug 21, 2002
    Estado de Mexico
    Re: ************

    Da Man's got a point there RDL.
     
  8. efernandez9

    efernandez9 Member

    Jun 6, 1999
    Joe Pool Lake
    caballero lives in Mexico

    RDL does not!

    I bet caballero is more mexican than RDL, at least lives and pays mexican taxes for the longest, can you contradict that?
     
  9. Don Boppero 3000

    Don Boppero 3000 DNALMQNLGLLMX!

    Jan 15, 2001
    The Fullerton Hotel Chicago
    Club:
    Club América
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Efren you must be looking for trouble.
     
  10. el mofles

    el mofles Member

    May 16, 2001
    RC Mongolian BBQ
    Club:
    Birmingham City LFC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    With one exception I'm inclined to say that none of them have shown enough merit or consistency in their play to displace a natural born citizen. Caballero would have been much less of a controversy had he arrived on the team a few years earlier, but by the time he arrived his best stuff had left him a long time ago. As of right now no naturalized or soon-to-be player looks like he would make a real difference on the team. If a Foreigner like 'Mohamed model:Toros Neza' or a 'Hurtado model: Celaya' comes along in the future then that's another story. It will probably be a Brazilian who went unnoticed by Sub-19 or Sub-21 selectors that becomes the next naturalized to be on the team if it ever does happen.
     
  11. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Did you read the warning label? I thought I said if you didnt know its best you shut your trap and get knowing

    Marquez doesnt live in Mexico either. I have 2 uncles that dont live in Mexico either. I know a lot of Mexican in the US that live in the US for temporary projects (oil).. and when i say temp.. i mean 10-15 year projects.


    longest? since 96 wowwwwwwww

    I dont even know why this is an issue..

    what? you suck up to the Admins, get the Mexico mod job and think you know Mexico now.... you are better off in the Conmebol forums.

    contradicr? pshawwwwww
     
  12. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Re: Re: ************

    really... and then why all the ruckus?

    If he was Mexican, there wouldnt of been any ruckus.
    And we especially woulndt even talk about him.

    I can see why VS is more open about this issue or any ex pat that was born and raised abroad and cut off all ties to Mexico... but I am not... this is nothing about being Xenophobic nor closeminded...The title says it all... Seleccion Nacional de Mexico.... not la Seleccion Nacional para Mexicanos Naturalizados...
     
  13. Monkeyboy2000

    Monkeyboy2000 Member

    Jan 27, 2000
    San Fran Bay Area
    Club:
    CDSC Cruz Azul
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Re: Extranjeros en la seleccion?

    Man, that would be such a cool motto to print on t-shirts.

    For me, I wouldn't pick anybody on that list especially in what should now be a re-building phase for el Tri.
     
  14. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Re: Re: Extranjeros en la seleccion?

     
  15. Monkeyboy2000

    Monkeyboy2000 Member

    Jan 27, 2000
    San Fran Bay Area
    Club:
    CDSC Cruz Azul
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Re: Re: Re: Extranjeros en la seleccion?

    You can conbine the warning label and your screen name like this -

    RDL
    6:74
    "Si no saben sobre este tema, es mejor callarse y enterarse"

    Makes it sound Biblical and relevant. :)
     
  16. Garcia

    Garcia Member

    Dec 14, 1999
    Castro Castro
    This is like saying, naturalized citizens and not really citizens, second class citizens, if you will...

    Look, if you (rdl) or anyone for that matter have a problem with globalization that is one thing, and if anyone has problems with bringing in players who know nothing of a country just hired guns to get a job finished, that is fine.

    I would agree with you that the integrity and the spirit of the law might be violated. Hey, we all have a right to be nationalistic and proud. Interesting to think Mexico(ians) are worried about legal immigration! :D

    If you think about it and know the process, to become a citizen of a new nation is a big step. If these people adopt a new nation where he has a chance to further their life's work, help a nation to success while maintaining certain residency requirements, no matter where they live in the off season, is just the first step.

    It is up to the player to become as Mexican as possible. That means he needs for the people to grow to accept them. In the USA I am seen differently and have been treated differently simply because my name "looks funny". Heck, even some Texans became Mexican citizens and fought the USA back in the day. Sure, they might have motives but they did it.

    I have a problem that with a grandparent's birth certificate a player from anywhere can get an EU passport and play in Europe. That is not cool in my book, but them's the rules, no?

    I think and believe that a citizen, by birth or by naturalization, deserves every right entitled to them by law. They may need to adjust and all interpersonal interactions aside, that citizen has the right to feel as and have equal access as any citizen.

    If you want to go back to the days of chivalry times and the class system determined by birth alone, you don't have to go that far. In some parts of India that still live by that rule and they treat "lower class" people badly and even kill them. Maybe only people of nobel birth should be allowed to be national team members. If that were true, we would have never seen such poor kids like Pele or Ronaldo.

    I know I have mixed some issues, but I see no consistancy in your arguement, rdl.
     
  17. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    This is like saying, naturalized citizens and not really citizens, second class citizens, if you will...

    Well, if thats the case, why cant Ahmed Jabal (ficticious name) run for presidency. He got his citizenship. I thought every citizen is elgible to run for Presidency (considering the 14 year residency in the actual states and age of 35). But we know that is not that case. So i guess they are also second hand citizens?

    No, they are not second class citizens. But i am willing to bet that Ahmed Jabal wont ever feel the same for the US as a Joe blow (or someone that was born and raised in the US) would.

    Look, if you (rdl) or anyone for that matter have a problem with globalization that is one thing, and if anyone has problems with bringing in players who know nothing of a country just hired guns to get a job finished, that is fine.

    globalization? Aside from my Chemistry degree...I am currently working on my International business degree (which i finish in May).. so NO, i dont have a problem with globalization.

    And no, i do see something wrong with just hiring guns to get the job done... because work that is undone today, will still have to be done tomorrow. We could bring in 23 naturalized players and win the WC...but what happens when those 23 players retire? Are we going to naturalize another 23? Why not breed them in our own backyard? We might as well cut funding at the youth level and forget about "fuerzas basicas" and the lower divisions.. Because thats the whole point. I am not against them because they are South Americans or Europeans.... its because we are not doing our job right.

    I would agree with you that the integrity and the spirit of the law might be violated. Hey, we all have a right to be nationalistic and proud. Interesting to think Mexico(ians) are worried about legal immigration!

    I am proud and I am very nationalistic. I love my country. It hasnt failed me, because I havent failed myself.

    And not just Mexicans, Garcia, but even your kind too... or what? To you have a Villa back in Southie or what?

    And I dont have a problem with the US getting stricter with immigration. Its the law. I was born with dual citizenship... buts its just a legal technicality. I respect both sides of the law... but my heart is only on one side of it.

    If you think about it and know the process, to become a citizen of a new nation is a big step. If these people adopt a new nation where he has a chance to further their life's work, help a nation to success while maintaining certain residency requirements, no matter where they live in the off season, is just the first step.

    and?

    It is up to the player to become as Mexican as possible. That means he needs for the people to grow to accept them. In the USA I am seen differently and have been treated differently simply because my name "looks funny". Heck, even some Texans became Mexican citizens and fought the USA back in the day. Sure, they might have motives but they did it.

    again... la Seleccion Nacionalde Mexico.

    When it becomes "la seleccion nacional PARA Mexicanos Naturalizados.... then I may be more open to it.

    I have a problem that with a grandparent's birth certificate a player from anywhere can get an EU passport and play in Europe. That is not cool in my book, but them's the rules, no?

    I dont care what they do. Its thier right..but I care about mine

    I think and believe that a citizen, by birth or by naturalization, deserves every right entitled to them by law.

    Even the presidency?

    I wouldnt make it a law... I would just make it an unwritten rule...

    They may need to adjust and all interpersonal interactions aside, that citizen has the right to feel as and have equal access as any citizen.

    No one is going to deny him or his children of any right.

    If you want to go back to the days of chivalry times and the class system determined by birth alone, you don't have to go that far. In some parts of India that still live by that rule and they treat "lower class" people badly and even kill them.

    ???? you lost me Ghandi ????

    This isnt about class system... this is about Mexicans on the Mexican national team. Not Naturalized Citizens on the Mexican national team.

    Maybe only people of nobel birth should be allowed to be national team members.

    You lost me again

    If that were true, we would have never seen such poor kids like Pele or Ronaldo.

    This is not about class structure.

    I know I have mixed some issues, but I see no consistancy in your arguement, rdl.

    consistancy.... lets see... you talked about the Texans of 1846, Ancient India, Class structure... i can see why you dont see consistancy in mine..

    next up...The Mailee Massacre, the Pompeii class structure, and the vindication of womens rights. :D


    I expected to talk about players and why they should or should not be there....what they could offer....

    Its funny... i didnt expect to debate this with South Americans. I never thought a South American would tell me who should or should not be on MY national team.
     
  18. efernandez9

    efernandez9 Member

    Jun 6, 1999
    Joe Pool Lake
    your national team?

    are you sure? you do not live there for yrs, and for waht you have said here - being at college have you around 22 or 24 yrs of age, and half of the time in USA

    Identity crisis, looking to identify yourselof with some one?
     
  19. chaski

    chaski Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 20, 2000
    Itchycoo Park
    Club:
    Lisburn Distillery FC
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Because Article II, section 1 of the Constitution says so.
    There are many immigrants who feel more for the US than a lot of folks who were born here, many of whom take the US for granted.
     
  20. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Because Article II, section 1 of the Constitution says so.

    But he is an American Citizen... why is he denied that right...

    I am not trying to turn this into a politcal debate...

    this is simple... The Mexican National team is for Mexicans. Not Naturalized Mexicans.

    There are many immigrants who feel more for the US than a lot of folks who were born here, many of whom take the US for granted.

    I was born Mexican, and I will die Mexican. Its that simple. There is no need to get creative here or technical..
     
  21. chaski

    chaski Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 20, 2000
    Itchycoo Park
    Club:
    Lisburn Distillery FC
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Beats me. Try the Federalist papers. ;)
    When I referred to folks who were born here who take the US for granted, I was not referring to dual citizens like you.
     
  22. Garcia

    Garcia Member

    Dec 14, 1999
    Castro Castro
    See rdl, this is where you always seem to make the same mistake. You think people are here to argue with you. I think you made a great example of the US presidency, but your "defense" of your position is based on emotions, not facts.

    I am your kind, believe it or not. I am a first generation USAian being born in Columbus, Ohio but with illegal alien parents who left Peru for that American Dream, if you will. I too have the right to have dual citizenship, but as efer already said...In Peru I am considered a gringo norte americano while in the States I am a latino, check the box please.

    I have more than 30 years on this planet and have gone through by identity crisis(es) and have come to realise that I am an individual. My diversity makes me more interesting not limit me.

    I have used history to show you that you are repeating it. Your pride and nationistic is the same banter that made people like Hitler and Pat Buchanan popular. Not to classify you or the real feelings you may have, but it can blind you.

    FIFA has rules and all the nations play by the same rules. I think people reap what they sow. Look at that French guy who played for the USA...he sucked. I don't think you could even debate this issue clearly enough (yes, even with Southies) when your position is already stated and you will not move from it. I suggest you call FIFA and if you bring a couple suitcases of cash, they might give you a few minutes of their time.

    I mean, hermano, come on already. How can you qualify any player "good enough" to play for Mexico when you already stated that only Mexicans should play for Mexico. It might hurt to say to yourself, Hey, maybe the best Mexican player might have been born in Argentina.

    I mean, your nationalistic rehtoric makes you look like a Chivas fan.

    Now, if this chicken/egg "conversation" had any solution it would start by seeing both sides, both possibilties. A thread title of "Extranjeros en la seleccion?" shows the bias...if they are qualfied to play for a national team, well then, they are not exactly extranjeros, no?

    While you're at it, call Fed Mex de Futbol because not one person from any other nation is playing you a stacked deck, Mexicans are doing it by following FIFA rules as an excuse.

    What about you and me?
    Dual citizens should be able to pick a nation to represent or can we play for both?
    If my mom was Mexican, but I was born in Canada, can I play for Mexico by your standards?
    I mean, I wouldn't have to live in Mexico to feel as Mexican as you.

    Now, which players listed might you consider and we could give this thread a futbol flavor.
     
  23. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    See rdl, this is where you always seem to make the same mistake. You think people are here to argue with you. I think you made a great example of the US presidency, but your "defense" of your position is based on emotions, not facts.

    Are you familar with the term "red herring"? Its a fallacy that occurs in our critical thinking process. Every ones does it.. even I find myself doing it. Its an arguement with some actual data, but it bears no meaning on the actual arguement at hand. Your analogies if you will are irrelevant to the arguement.

    I am your kind, believe it or not. I am a first generation USAian being born in Columbus, Ohio but with illegal alien parents who left Peru for that American Dream, if you will. I too have the right to have dual citizenship, but as efer already said...In Peru I am considered a gringo norte americano while in the States I am a latino, check the box please.

    Thats fine. Nothing wrong with that. But we come from 2 sides of the spectrum. I still in very much contact with home because Mexico is still my home.

    I have more than 30 years on this planet and have gone through by identity crisis(es) and have come to realise that I am an individual. My diversity makes me more interesting not limit me.

    Well, thats fine. I have not gone through that identity crisis. I have always been Mexican even when it wasnt cool to be Latino. I didnt Americanize myself to appeal to the crowd. I am what I am. I never had problems.

    And I dont limit myself. When I travel, I respect the locals. So that old saying, When in Rome, eat like the Roman. Well, I am not Roman, but I still get along with them. I am well aware never to show the bottom of my feet to an Arabic and I know to rinse myself before and after i take a bath in Japan. These are cultural (learned behavoirs) differences.

    I have used history to show you that you are repeating it. Your pride and nationistic is the same banter that made people like Hitler and Pat Buchanan popular.

    This a a critical thinking fdallacy on your part. Apples and oranges.

    Not to classify you or the real feelings you may have, but it can blind you.

    Blind me? What does the Mexican National team mean? I assume its a team that consist of Mexicans. Could my assumption be off?

    FIFA has rules and all the nations play by the same rules. I think people reap what they sow. Look at that French guy who played for the USA...he sucked. I don't think you could even debate this issue clearly enough (yes, even with Southies) when your position is already stated and you will not move from it. I suggest you call FIFA and if you bring a couple suitcases of cash, they might give you a few minutes of their time.

    FIFA is a governing soccer body. They are not an anthropological association. So if they allow ex pats to play for other countries... so be it. Not everyone is in favor of it.

    I mean, hermano, come on already. How can you qualify any player "good enough" to play for Mexico when you already stated that only Mexicans should play for Mexico. It might hurt to say to yourself, Hey, maybe the best Mexican player might have been born in Argentina.

    Because the MEXICAN national team is for Mexicans.

    I dont care if the next Maradona or Pele wanted to play for Mexico.. If he is not Mexican, I dont want him on the Mexican National team.

    I mean, your nationalistic rehtoric makes you look like a Chivas fan.

    I am well aware between a National team and a club team?

    And funny you use that arguement. You say I am blinded by my patriotism. If that were the case, I would be a Chivas fan...but I am not.

    Now, if this chicken/egg "conversation" had any solution it would start by seeing both sides, both possibilties. A thread title of "Extranjeros en la seleccion?" shows the bias...if they are qualfied to play for a national team, well then, they are not exactly extranjeros, no?

    I bring this up, because it cuased a lot of controversy. I for one am in against using ex pats for the Mexican National Team.

    And yes, they are Foreigners. What would you call them?

    While you're at it, call Fed Mex de Futbol because not one person from any other nation is playing you a stacked deck, Mexicans are doing it by following FIFA rules as an excuse.

    Its legal, but many are against that practise.

    What about you and me?
    Dual citizens should be able to pick a nation to represent or can we play for both?
    If my mom was Mexican, but I was born in Canada, can I play for Mexico by your standards?
    I mean, I wouldn't have to live in Mexico to feel as Mexican as you.


    Then by right, you are Mexican.

    I can understand your leniency to this rule since you have you have experienced an identity crisis... but I dont.

    Now, which players listed might you consider and we could give this thread a futbol flavor.

    none. I like Leandro and I like Pinhiero and I wish they played for America... but I dont want them on the Mexican National team.
     
  24. Garcia

    Garcia Member

    Dec 14, 1999
    Castro Castro
    Ok, I will bite.

    Dude, who said I was in favor of allowing folks to nationalize and play for a national team? I am more in favor of making national teams "birth rights" as compared to what we have today.

    You really need to give Latino comics credit for your comedy. I was Latino before it was cool be and today even Latinos claim to be. :rolleyes: You are not talking to a spring chicken who spent years of treatment to get over "my crisis".

    I learned where I stood with people and myself over time in real life settings that might be a tad different from yours. Everybody, of any race has to find their place in life as an individual. I am not some Johnny Taliban type acting black on the internet. Give me some credit. I keep it real.

    Come on, just because you come on here and say to educated, Mexcian, etc...I would respect your opinion regardless. You seem to doubt other's intelligence and dismiss other arguments without giving anything of real comeback or anlaysis (I am working on my MBA for fun in my spare time and have a successful business paying for it, gracias). Going with quotes and bold type, point by point, and saying nothing shows, well, nothing. A game of semantics will get you nowhere.

    The funny thing is that growing up I was called Mexican and even some kids asked me to say "something in Mexican." Imagine that no matter how you distance yourself from me, "the man" thinks we are all the same. I wouldn't be ashamed if we were, not having ever met in person. Heck, ask efer how one time in Peru, the police thought I was from Colombia! :D

    I still don't know why you start a thread when you don't have any inclination to see any other side, as I have tried to show you, regardless of my real position. El peor ciego es el cual no quiere ver.
     
  25. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Ok, I will bite.

    Dude, who said I was in favor of allowing folks to nationalize and play for a national team? I am more in favor of making national teams "birth rights" as compared to what we have today.


    Then why argue?

    I am well aware of FIFA allowing these practices, but I dont give two shyts what they say.

    You really need to give Latino comics credit for your comedy. I was Latino before it was cool be and today even Latinos claim to be. You are not talking to a spring chicken who spent years of treatment to get over "my crisis".

    Hey, you are the one that mentioned it.. not me

    I learned where I stood with people and myself over time in real life settings that might be a tad different from yours. Everybody, of any race has to find their place in life as an individual. I am not some Johnny Taliban type acting black on the internet. Give me some credit. I keep it real.

    hmmm not acting black.. and yet you use the term "keeping it real" HAHA I love it...

    True, but that place does not mean the Mexican National team.

    come on, just because you come on here and say to educated, Mexcian, etc...I would respect your opinion regardless. You seem to doubt other's intelligence and dismiss other arguments without giving anything of real comeback or anlaysis

    Sorry, but if using critical thinking fallacies as your base, then I can do without giving analysis.

    ITs real simple. LA Seleccion Nacional de Mexico.

    Its not La Seleccion Nacional Para Mexicanos Naturalizados.

    SOmetimes things dont need to be researched and get all technical.. Its obvious.

    (I am working on my MBA for fun in my spare time and have a successful business paying for it, gracias). Going with quotes and bold type, point by point, and saying nothing shows, well, nothing. A game of semantics will get you nowhere.

    You can get a doctorate for all I care.

    And a game played without knowing the rules will also get you no where.

    Did you happen to read the warning label in the begining of the thread?

    This thread was intended for people familiar with the Mexican league to talk about the issue of using naturalized players on the team and if they are really needed?

    This thread is not about foreigners, like yourself, coming in and telling us who deserves a chance on our national team. Its common courtesy. I could give two shyts who plays on the Peruvian team or the US team. IF you want to allow the swedish bikini team on the Peruvian team.. thats ya'll. Not us. I dont have a right telling you who should be on there or not. I dont know if you feel like you are more peruvian one day or American the other.

    The funny thing is that growing up I was called Mexican and even some kids asked me to say "something in Mexican." Imagine that no matter how you distance yourself from me, "the man" thinks we are all the same. I wouldn't be ashamed if we were, not having ever met in person. Heck, ask efer how one time in Peru, the police thought I was from Colombia!

    Well, I was mistaken also as a Spaniard when I was in Spain but this is not about race nor ethnicity. This is about a National team.

    I still don't know why you start a thread when you don't have any inclination to see any other side, as I have tried to show you, regardless of my real position. El peor ciego es el cual no quiere ver.

    I said in the begining of this thread... IF you dont not know the subject, its best to shut your trap and get the knowing....

    Not once have you talked about theplayers I mentioned. Do we really need Pinhiero on the left...knowing we have Morales on the left? Thats the point of the thread. So yes, i was trying to see why they wrere in favor of it.

    LA ironia es que me acusas de ser ciego? No viste el anuncio al prinicipio ... te lo escribo otra vez..."el que no sepa sobre este tema, es mejor callarse y enterarse"

    Some people say I am impatient... And that is not true.. I am intolerant...I do not tolerate stupidity... If you speak of subject matter that you know nothing of.. I will put you in your place... i find that people are more likely to restain what they were going to say and go reserach the material and then come back for an intelligent conversation...some people just have to learn the hard way... thats something i learned as a kiddo. So when i hear comments like JLG saying "let the Chivas Martinez on the Mexican National team" You damn right I will put his ass where he belongs... How the hell are you going to say he belongs there when he doesnt even know what we have or our depth...


    Now.... if you want to come back in a couple weeks and talk about Pinhiero or Zinha or Leandro.... fine... I am game.... but dont come here and say "Open the gates" just for the hell of it. Give me reason. And sometimes... reason is not needed since its obvious

    So, next time....Say... "Yes ************... open the gates... because Mexico is hurting on the left side!!".... I may still disagree and say... NO wait a minute.... why odnt we work with the sub 23 player in stead... or why not change the tactics..
     

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