Ex-RSL Players Part 6: Here, There, and Everywhere

Discussion in 'Real Salt Lake' started by Ismitje, Feb 17, 2015.

  1. irondeepbicycle

    irondeepbicycle Member+

    Real Salt Lake
    United States
    Jul 31, 2017
    I posted about this on Reddit and have thought about writing a guest post and sending it to RSL Soapbox or something. My view is that the club needs to understand 3 things.

    1. This was a massive screw-up, the kind that should prompt soul-searching and revisions to our internal processes, if not outright firings.

    2. This was the club's fault, not Ochoa's.

    3. The screw-up happened before the season started, when Ochoa wasn't sold OR extended.

    The third point is the key one. This went so off-the-rails and lead to us selling for pennies on the dollar because we just voluntarily gave away our leverage by letting Ochoa go into the season with 1 year on his deal. So instead of an asset that was worth mid-7 figures, we had an "asset" that we were happy to get $75K for.

    Fall is a new and pretty inexperienced GM and it's normal for any front office to make mistakes sometimes, but the defensiveness from the club is making me nervous. If they don't understand the scale of this mistake then they'll repeat it when this inevitably comes up again in the future.
     
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  2. 15 to 32

    15 to 32 Straw Hog

    Jul 1, 2008
    Salt Lake
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think being a non-cancer in the locker room is a unique Pablo requirement....
     
  3. 15 to 32

    15 to 32 Straw Hog

    Jul 1, 2008
    Salt Lake
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with points 1 and 3. I completely disagree with point 2. Ochoa hadn't done enough to warrant the club bending over backwards to his will. The club stroked his ego and certainly shoulders blame, but Ochoa thought he was apparently the greatest thing out there and, honestly... I don't see a whole lot of difference between him and MacMath. They're on very different career paths, but those paths don't just happen. Ochoa gave an attitude of a goalkeeper who already was there. He wasn't. He has the tools... but so did so many others his age.

    More than anything, though, Ochoa was so caught up in being the villain that he forgot to let the schtick go when just with his own team.
     
  4. RSLer

    RSLer Member+

    Sep 24, 2008
    Stansbury Park, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just a word of caution about not selling Ochoa early. We don’t know the details of his contract. It might include provisions which prevent selling or trading him. Of course, I don’t know. It’s just the thought that came to mind when I questioned what the FO was thinking.
     
  5. irondeepbicycle

    irondeepbicycle Member+

    Real Salt Lake
    United States
    Jul 31, 2017
    Honestly, if that was the club's assessment of Ochoa's abilities, that's fine, but it also doesn't change anything. He had over 50 pro appearances, a senior international trophy, and a playoff penalty shootout win, at the age when Matt Turner was playing for Fairfield University.

    It's a little strange to see fans scoff at the idea that Ochoa would have interest from some pretty big clubs. Why wouldn't he? There aren't a lot of keepers with that pedigree at that age. Barcelona is probably unrealistic but I could absolutely see him getting interest from Club America or Xolos (as was rumored).

    It's not hard for me to imagine that Ochoa would want a big contract, and the club wouldn't think his play warrants it. Fair enough! But then he HAS to be sold, and if Fall can't sell a player with that resume then I honestly don't think it makes him look any better.
     
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  6. goobx1

    goobx1 Member+

    Jul 9, 2007
    Salt Lake
    I would bet that is exactly what happened AFTER Pablo gave Ochoa every opportunity to be a part of the team. My guess anyway.
     
  7. goobx1

    goobx1 Member+

    Jul 9, 2007
    Salt Lake
    I can't agree with number 2 as well.

    I seriously doubt that the just because the club didn't want to meet contract demands from David that they were so pissed off that they wouldn't let him practice or play with the team. That's nuts. If it's true, which I sincerely doubt, then heads should roll but that can't possibly be the case.

    If David wanted to get sold then being a team player and showing some professionalism would have worked wonders. With all his accolades, being a team player and waiting to get his starting role back after an injury while the team was playing remarkably well, probably made that a hard pill to swallow but in the end, if he had shown some patience, perhaps RSL could have been able to send him where he wanted to go. Instead, from what it looks like and all accounts, he chose a different route that separated him from the team in every way. I guarantee if he had been more of a team player he would have had multiple opportunities to get a start this season. Like after NYCFC or next week.

    I will concede that we don't really know how it all ended up this way but to anyone that has watched professional sports for any length of time has seen this story over and over and over again. Young talented player has a nice run, gets a little big for his britches and things go sideways. It happens in every sport. EVERY. SPORT. Looking from the outside in and watching David since the Monarchs this is what I see. Knowing how much "potential" David has why on earth would the FO not try and work with him to get the most value for the team and the player?

    RSL definitely screwed the pooch, but lets be honest, it takes two to tango.
     
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  8. 15 to 32

    15 to 32 Straw Hog

    Jul 1, 2008
    Salt Lake
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have the receipts somewhere .... I was very much in favor of RSL selling Ochoa over the offseason. I've watched this club screw up selling players far too long to think that this was going to go well once the actual season started.

    That all said:

    The club, once the offseason passed, were in a spot with very little leverage. Ochoa's contract is up at the end of 2022, sure, but with the world cup in the winter everything was truncated. That also applied to other clubs. Notably euro and Mexican sides.

    By the start of the season, with Ochoa going in and out of injury, the phone calls to RSL had to have died down a bit. We're talking March/April at this point. Again, Ochoa's contract is over at the end of 2022. That's October/November. You're talking 6 months of contract left. For even big name / proven players, this is a timeline that doesn't appeal for a transfer fee.

    Then you add in that the potential suitors all have an offseason in that 6-month timeframe. Would they ideally want a new signing in their preseason, but paying for a young keeper? not what happens often.

    Elliott Fall screwed this up in the offseason. Pablo and the locker room aren't as much of a factor at that time. Ochoa should have been sold then. Would it have garnered a $15m transfer fee? Absolutely not. But at that point you're selling a player that these other clubs could actually need/use.
     
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  9. irondeepbicycle

    irondeepbicycle Member+

    Real Salt Lake
    United States
    Jul 31, 2017
    My view is that none of this matters. The screw-up was in the offseason and the goose was cooked by the time the first game was played this year.

    If MacMath had been terrible and Ochoa had easily regained the starting spot we'd be in the exact same situation, with a keeper with international interest and only a few months left on his contract, preventing us from getting any kind of good offer.

    I think the typical fan is thinking of the "problem" as the 2022 season and all of the fighting on social media and everything, and my argument is that that's all secondary. We were screwed before the season even started because of Fall's mismanagement. That's the key point that the club needs to get right in the future.
     
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  10. irondeepbicycle

    irondeepbicycle Member+

    Real Salt Lake
    United States
    Jul 31, 2017
    ^ Yeah to be clear this is essentially my argument. We should have had extension talks as soon as the playoffs ended (which I've heard we did do). If we were too far apart to agree on terms that's completely fine, but then selling Ochoa prior to the season is mandatory.

    I don't think Ochoa would have garnered what Slonina just did but he surely would have been worth at least 7 figures. Even a $1 million fee would have been extremely helpful and far better than what we ended up getting.

    Also just to clarify, when I say this is the club's fault I'm pointing fingers at Fall and the front office, not Pablo.
     
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  11. Med_Phys

    Med_Phys Member+

    RSL
    United States
    Jun 20, 2019
    Terre Haute, IN
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Pretty sure lots of people were calling for Ochoa to get more minutes in 2020. Had that happened, maybe he could have worked out an extension last year. Oh well.

    Speaking of former GKs, how much longer do you think they'll be paying Putna?

    Next year, who's the backup? Dewsnup (has he been injured this year?)? Beavers? I heard about his save and PK against Chelsea.
     
  12. 15 to 32

    15 to 32 Straw Hog

    Jul 1, 2008
    Salt Lake
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Does the club bring back Putna now with ochoa gone or was the offense worse?
     
  13. goobx1

    goobx1 Member+

    Jul 9, 2007
    Salt Lake
    I certainly get that the FO gave up most or ALL of their leverage by not getting Ochoa sold or resigned in the off season and there is plenty of blame for that to go round.

    All of that doesn't exonerate Ochoa though if you ask me. And David's actions this year don't excuse the FO for not doing a better job but still, there were choices that David could have made to avoid much of the drama.

    Dunny was on Spence Checketts show yesterday and I thought he did a good job explaining how it all went down, at least from his perspective, and it pretty much played out how I thought, at least. The team wasn't willing to give David the contract that he wanted and they couldn't come to a compromise. And then all that went down this season.

    There is no arguing that the FO screwed the pooch but to let Ochoa off the hook for making it worse just wont fly. He behaved less like a professional and more like a kid, which he is, but being a kid shouldn't be an excuse. He made choices that let him be portrayed as not a team player when if he had been a team player perhaps he gets what he wants and RSL gets a larger paycheck as well.
     
  14. 15 to 32

    15 to 32 Straw Hog

    Jul 1, 2008
    Salt Lake
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #2189 15 to 32, Aug 2, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2022
    From the perspective of Ochoa - a 20-year-old prospect at the time of this all going down - I can certainly see reasons for frustration.

    Let's look at the 2021 season and what the club was spouting about Ochoa. They were leaning ALL IN on Ochoa and his antics. Remember the whole shenanigans with the Wonder Wall and Ochoa apparently nearly committing murder with a soccer ball? The club's reaction wasn't an apology or something that swept it to the side. Nah, it was to have Ochoa or another player punt a ball into the RioT stands after a game.

    Further, Pablo showed preference to Ochoa to end the season and during the run of games that - from my perspective - got Pablo his job. Not MacMath. Ochoa was the guy. So, from David's perspective, he was the guy not just this year, but going forward. Pablo was his guy, he was a face of the club,

    Which then lead to the rumored/discussed contract discussions this offseason. This is where it fell apart and where Fall really showed his lack of GM chops. It appears that Fall thought waiting into the season would push Ochoa to want to sign a contract. That didn't happen. It blew up in his face.

    Even worse, Ochoa picked up an injury and suddenly lost his spot to a guy he had already beaten out before. MacMath played well enough that Ochoa wasn't getting his spot back easily. With how little rotation happens in that spot, it was going to be really tough for Ochoa to get time. All the while, he's getting talks from his agent that other clubs are interested. If I'm him, I'm frustrated as hell. Remember, it's a world cup year and Ochoa would love to be that 3rd GK on the Mexico roster. To do that, he has to play. If it isn't at RSL, then he needs to find a way out.

    Not much can be done about it now. I seriously doubt ownership will have a strong enough opinion on this to fire Fall, so he gets off relatively fine. However, I expect this to be much improved with the next wave of young promising players. We have plenty in this roster.
     
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  15. irondeepbicycle

    irondeepbicycle Member+

    Real Salt Lake
    United States
    Jul 31, 2017
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  16. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ochoa finally made the gameday roster for DC. On the bench, but progress. If we want to get more of that cash out of the deal, we need him to get on the field.
     
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  17. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ochoa got the start for DC at LAFC. He slipped coming out on LAFC's goal but stopped shots well, and looked better than their other keepers have this season. DC was at ten min the last half hour and he kept the score respectable.
     
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  18. BalanceUT

    BalanceUT RSL and THFC!

    Oct 8, 2006
    Appalachia
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    IMO, that thinking never applies in sports, nor many other things. The higher the skill of the player, the more rare that skill is. Therefore, the salary/transfer-fee differential is not linearly related. It is certainly an exponential relationship.
     
  19. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ochoa caught a break tonight in not being in goal for the game as DC got absolutely shelled tonight by the Union - though Philly has blasted a lot of teams this year. 5-0 with fifteen minutes to play.

    EDIT: 6-0 with ten to play.
     
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  20. RSLer

    RSLer Member+

    Sep 24, 2008
    Stansbury Park, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wonder why Rooney started the other fellow?
     
  21. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  22. goobx1

    goobx1 Member+

    Jul 9, 2007
    Salt Lake

    Some of the things that stuck out to me were the fact that Ochoa wanted or expected to just get his starting job back after the injury even though RSL was arguably playing the best soccer they have played in years. He also was such a deterrent or detriment in the locker room that the players had to go to the coach to tell the dude to chill out and Ochoa seemed to get off on "bossing" the other guys around.

    Also, the top 5 goalie thing was pretty interesting as well. He certainly was worth a greater investment but his decisions and actions seemed to make over paying for him difficult.

    There are certainly things that we don't know and wont ever know about what occurred and there is really plenty of blame to go round, but from the sounds of it RSL put up with David as well as leaned into his antics and David took full advantage as any 20 year old might do. He also seemed to feel that team rules and requests were just suggestions and something the other players not as good as him had to follow. So much so that most of or in fact all of the team turned on him and cared so little for his antics and "disrespect" that they told on him.

    I hope that things go well with him but I wonder if he has actually learned his lesson or if he feels his actions were justified and he as nothing to learn.

    Maybe next time he will treat his team mates in such a way that they will want him to actually play with them on the first team.
     
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  23. UofRSL

    UofRSL Member

    Jul 23, 2009
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed on all points.

    How he talked about the Monarch’s and how it was “easy” was concerning as well.
    He should have used that time to be a mentor to younger players who likely looked up to him and wanted the same journey to the first team he had. Instead he leaves and goes and trains by himself and was it any wonder he was still out of favor?
     
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  24. goobx1

    goobx1 Member+

    Jul 9, 2007
    Salt Lake
    Lots of blame to go round and sometimes you can lay out a very simple plan for someone on how they can take total advantage of a situation that only benefits them but because they may be 20 years old they are too dumb to figure that out. I am totally speaking from experience. On multiple occasions. And multiple ages from like 15 to 55.
     
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  25. Med_Phys

    Med_Phys Member+

    RSL
    United States
    Jun 20, 2019
    Terre Haute, IN
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So Twitter had some interesting discussion on this. Some were arguing that he should have been paid as a top 10 GK. For reference, top 10 starts at $500k. One number thrown out was $700k becuase you'd make the money back on a transfer. Now, RSL wasn't using any U-22 spots at the time, so, it wouldn't have any impact on the salary budget. However, I'm not sure what kind of precedent that would set. He only played for one year. Maybe the Rubio deal is already giving the team pause. Either way, this team keeps losing promising young players with little to no return.

    If they aren't going to get minutes at RSL, it'll be a long time until the kids at the Monarchs are going to make RSL a selling/developmental club. There's just too big of a gap between the Glad's and Herrera's and whoever comes next.

    The U24 minutes this year at RSL is 2nd lowest in the league this year, I believe. So much for #Playthekids.
     
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