I never said there were no attractive Danish women! If we're talking Europe, I believe the most beautiful women are to be found around the Adriatic sea.
The point is that neither the Dutch or the Belgians went around killing off jewish people before or after Nazi occupation. Yet for some strange reason we're still to blame! There's people about who like to think that we actually invited the Nazis over for a tea party with a holocaust for afters. And I agree, there's no such thing as a united European feeling towards Israel. Not among the European people and not officially either.
You don't even know what you're arguing against. Have you read my post at all? I said no Jew was ever prosecuted for his faith in the Netherlands. How does any of what you said go against that? And like I said before, the catholics weren't in a better position than the jews. As late as in the 19th century the catholics were not given state benefits whereas the protestants were. You don't hear me scream murder and prosecution though do you. Besides, this was the 17th century. If you can't see how the Dutch stance re: judaism was EXTREMELY liberal for its time then you might want to google and wiki a bit more. Boy oh boy you really have a problem with the Dutch don't you. What caused that? Did a Dutch girl laugh at your small manhood or something?
I would imagine that being an ally of German, rather than being ordered by Germany, would make a significant difference. It depends whether you believe if Holland had just been asked to send jews to the camps, as Italy apparently was, if the numbers would still have been similar. The interesting thing would be to see why the percentages were different in Holland as opposed to maybe Denmark. the problem is nobody here can really say with first hand knowledge what the attitudes of the day were like as they have almost certainly changed hugely. JN might know what attitudes now are like in Holland, but that doesn't mean they were the same in 1940. Similarly, I think it's pretty daft to extrapolate ideas from that era and assume the same attitudes exist today.
yeah, I wasn't having a go at you specifically - just the general idea that a voice from Europe (no matter how "curiously" put) disagreeing with the completely ridiculous idea the thread started with, should be responded to with an implication that events such as Krystalnacht was some kind of Europe-wide celebration, such was the deep hatred of jews in Europe at the time.
Most European countries did have antisemitic and fascist parties that enjoyed (some moderate) success in the years leading up to the war. So there was undeniably an undercurrent of antisemitism all over the continent, not just in Germany and Austria.
Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in 1943 Warsaw Uprising in 1944 i think you have these two events confused don't worry, its a common failing in the West
There was a Jewish chap in the UK during the second world war called Charles Solomon. He was the director of the Jewish Telegraphic Agency (which was a news organisation, rather than one dedicated to kosher pylons) and he made quite a stir by claiming that in Britain, anti-semitism was dead. I can't remember the details of when and in what context, but it's an interesting view of the status in which anti-semitism was held in the UK during WWII. I think empathy for Jews, driven by indistinct but firm knowledge of something pretty awful going on in Germany, was higher than many subsequently claimed. It's certainly at odds with the absurd premise which began this thread.
That's fair enough. On the subject of attitudes: visit any random pub in the NL on any given night and you'll hear some drunkard say that all muslims should be thrown out of the country. At the same time you'd be very hard pressed to find anyone say that about the jews, and even if they did think it, they wouldn't in the knowledge that it would be considered extremely politically incorrect and that's putting it mildly. Slagging off muslims is accepted in the NL, whether by comedians or serious politicians, slagging off jewish people is not. I think it is quite similar in our neighbouring countries which is why some of us reacted so strongly to the thread starter as it underscores a complete lack of insight, well into the Northern European mind, at least. As for the attitude towards Israel, that is something we regard as a political issue here. If Israel was predominantly buddhist they'd get criticised as much as they are now.
It's nationalism that the popularity of these parties were built on mostly if you ask me. The popularity of the Dutch fascists took a nosedive immediately after their leader approved of Hitler's invasion of Poland, for example. So yes quite a large group liked the idea of fascism, but the idea of being invaded by a German didn't appeal to them one bit. Interesting in that regard is that the aggression and faux nationalism of these antisemitic and fascist parties in the 1930s sounds quite similar to that of the populist right wing anti-islam parties in Europe now. When things are bad people like a scapegoat. It was the jews then, it's the muslims now. Among the idiots of European society in any case.
By far the biggest fear in europe in the mid 30s was fear of communism - it was that which drove support for fascism. France, England and the USA all gave material assistance to Franco, The blackshirts and the Nazi Condor Legion in Spain before they later realised their rather appalling mistake. It's easy to forget that there was actually fighting in the street, if not with tanks and bombs, in other countries - and the first residents in the concentration camps were largely comnmunists and later the SA. As usual, the leaders of the free world seemed happy to overlook a certain level of barbarity against religious and racial minorities in order to ensure the correct 'great game' outcome.
We can hold off on the '44 uprising until we need to castigate the Russians. But it wasn't much of a proud moment for the US or England, either.
So, as I said, your view is "yes, we were prejudiced towards the Jews, yes we institutionalized it, yes we arrested Jews for the sole reason that they were Jews, but that's OK, because others were worse. Even in Holland Jews were indeed deprived of rights due to their religion. And this after you claimed that nothing was "institutionalized" against Jews. It was. What's amazing is that you haven't admitted a single misstatement in this thread, despite making a ton of them. Compared to Europe's record, the US' record is simply immaculate when it comes to Jews. Not even CLOSE. That's the argument you tried to make, and you're dead wrong. As usual. I don't have a problem with the Dutch. I have multiple Dutch friends, I've spent time in our Amsterdam office and have many Dutch colleagues. Really nice people. I have a problem with you and the stupid shit in your posts.
Oh, for God's sake, the thread is a pisstake. Of all people Matt, you should know that. It only got heated when johan took it seriously and then tried to claim that Europeans have historically been better to Jews than the Americans have. Sure, because there aren't any left.
The post I quoted. You asked Johan if she denied being European, and the discussion at the time was about the crimes committed against the Jewish people by Europeans during WWII. It seemed to imply a degree of guilt on all Europeans. Why else did you ask her if she denied her European identity then? Johan's post: Your reply:
Your biggest problem, JN, is that you take personal, anecdotal observations and use them in internet discussions about far broader issues, be they historical, geo-political or even related to football. The Dutch have as guilty a history of anti-semitism as the rest of Europe over the centuries and were as complicit in the eradication of Jewry during the years of occupation by Germany as the other territories that fell under the yoke of the Third Reich. That's a matter of historical fact and I can't for the life of me understand why you launched on this futile and wrong-headed attempt to pretend otherwise. Likewise, your attempt to paint the US at the time of the Second World War as, at best, no better than European nations is silly. Even if you had the wherewithal to sustain this argument (and you don't), the end point is worthless - whatever role the US did or did not play in the abject plight of the Jews in Europe, the role played by the Dutch was what it was.
As for the only really interesting question in here, comparing the Netherlands to Denmark (or other occupied (≠allied) countries) : - The Danish Jewish population was quite small, whereas, percentage wise, the Netherlands had one of the highest on the continent. - Denmark neighbours Sweden, which it has and had considerable ties to, and which is quite easily accessible by boat, to evacuate it's Jewish population too. The Netherlands didn't have a comparable neutral (!) country so close to itself. - The Danish had quite an autonomous status within the third Reich, also compared to the Netherlands. - The Danish were warned. - The Netherlands were (and still are) a highly bureaucratic country, the Nazis just had to go to the local town hall to get all the names of all the place's Jewish inhabitants on a list. It wasn't as easy in Belgium or France (dunno about Denmark). Yes, many Dutch people glorify the Dutch past when it comes to the time under German oppression. There were many heroes and heroic stories to be told, especially in the countryside, but the largest percentage of the population was indifferent to the Jews' fate or at least didn't take any action to help them, similair (even though not as bad) as in Germany, similair to France, and different than the Danish.
Since the Danish still had a "shadow" government, (the Danish government still tried to help their people where they could even after they resigned in 1943), a lot of civil servants actually helped in the rescue of the Jews, since most of them still felt more of a sense of loyalty to their former elected officials than to the Nazi regime that was put in place. Another big difference is that you found more "arrangeur" types in Belgium (meaning, civil servants, mayors and such who were used to following the rules quite loosely and kept on doing so under German rule).
Look at her original post. One can't claim that Europeans treat Jews better than Americans and then back away and say "oh, but not all Europeans are the same". Well duh.
She's not. She's only responsible for her own stupid words. Which are a plenty. She should stop attempting to be the Star Search Spokesmodel for Europe, and particularly the Dutch on the whole plight of the Palestinians. Particularly when she takes it upon herself to call for Israel to not respond to HAMAS' attacks since (paraphrasing her past statements) "the Jews should know what it's like to be oppressed". Conveniently forgetting that Israel was populated by European Jews, particularly because of the history of various European countries, well before, up to and including, and well after the Holocaust because the governments of said countries from time to time either treated them as non-citizens, undertook or tacit permitted persecution of them, or as we all know, systematically attempted to wipe them out. Still ignoring Nic's posts I see. Lord knows, without you, no one would be taking up for the poor Palestinians and the government they elected. Faith, race, what's the difference? And by liberal, we mean, just sort of treating them like 3rd class citizens, not outright rousting them out of their houses and burning them. Gotcha. Boy oh boy you really have a problem with the Dutch don't you. What caused that? Did a Dutch girl laugh at your small manhood or something?[/QUOTE] Funny, but Johan seems to believe that during that time period, it was just as bad for Jews in the US as it was in Europe. Perhaps even worse. I think there's plenty enough evidence that while the Krystalnacht wasn't a Europe wide mardi gras, there is plenty of evidence of persecution, murder and tacit governmental acceptance of such in various continental European countries well before the rise of the Nazis. The Nazi's just took to the the next level. I think it goes back a bit beyond just the lead up to WWII. So really, what you're saying is that you've just changed the focus of your bigotry. Good to see you guys have matured. I think what it really is that since you got rid of all the Jews with the creation of Israel, you'd like to do something similar with all Muslims. And Israel, simply by deciding not to get all Holocausted again and provide you with the dumping ground, sort of pisses you off. Glad you've decided to unmask yourself. Darva Conger van Neeskin just wants you to give her her life back. QFT