RichardL, I've done extensive reading on the Holocaust, and in particular the responses of the various European nations and their citizenry to the systematic gathering and eventual murder of their Jewish citizens. It is a complex, bewildering and confusing history, that doesn't lend itself to easy answers. I've been particularly interested in the response of Italy, and of its citizens, to the roundup of Jews. While it is true that some of Italy was not occupied by the Germans, this fact alone does not account for the relatively higher % of Italian Jews that survived the war as compared to its pre-war population. Several books have been written on this (I'm sorry I can't cite one offhand, though I've read several), and they attempt to explore many factors present in the Italian government, the nature of Italian society and culture, the role of the Catholic Church, etc., that may help to explain this. I came away thinking that just when I think I know something, I realize that I really don't, that it's so difficult to pinpoint the confluence of factors that leads people to be killers, or killer enablers, or heroic rescuers, or timid onlookers, and every other state of mind in between. If I had more time here I would put forth what I believe were the most important factors in explaining Italy's role during the Holocaust. And I might attempt to do that with other nations, including the Netherlands, but my time is limited. There were certainly many heroic individuals, but there were no saints among nations. All who had involvement with Jews share some culpability and complicity in this tragedy, but clearly some nations bear a much larger role in the death of Jews (and many others, as well). It would take too long for me to properly address some of the statements that have flown back and forth between Johan Neeskens & others, so I'll just leave by saying that anti-Semitism is too deeply imbedded in the fabric of many nations and cultures for it to be completely eradicated. All we can do, as with other forms of oppression and hatred, is be vigilant, educate others, and hope we can positively influence as many as possible.
That's really it. It seems to me there are three kinds of people who would find johan neeskens's views anything other than patently ridiculous: 1. People who hold as equally guilty the murderer and the one who witnesses a murder but does nothing to stop it. 2. People who harbor the bizarre belief that America undertook the systematic genocide of worldwide Jewry. 3. Holocaust deniers.
Oh crap, I missed this idiocy. Was she trying to argue that the US had nothing to do with Market Garden?
Ah johan. You're such a tool. Here - educate yourself: Boy, that William of Orange sure was lookin' out for the Jews! But, of course, there's more: Now, to be fair, they didn't kill all Jews immediately. But: Not that it was ever institutionalized, of course. Oh wait. So, in conclusion, what johan REALLY meant was that Jews were better off in Holland than in other parts of Europe, even if they didn't get full citizenship until the 19th century. Oops.
Let me just note for the record that the best place for Jews in Nazi occupied Europe was Denmark. And that by a very considerable margin.
And the women are hotter than Dutch women, and less bitter and downtrodden looking. Then again, if you were a dutch woman, you'd look all downtrodden too with with Dutch men usually occupied with making sure public bicycles are returned to their proper places and reading erotic poetry to elderly women in nursing homes, so they have to settle for angry Palestinian students.
How is Johan, or indeed any modern European responsible for what every single European in the history of the continent did?
Just by the by, of course Ford Motor company did actively collaborate with the fascists in Spain (just for starters)
Or indeed the many europeans who died opposing the nazi's, not least of all the many europeans of the New Zealand Army
There is no European feel towards Israel. I know as many opinions about what is going on in Gaza right now as I know people...
Well, this thread started off poorly, got caught up in a bit of hysteria on all sides & now is buried in recrimination. Surely, a scapegoat is needed!
Many people in Belgium betrayed the Jews, but many tried to help them as well. How come we (as in modern day Western Europeans) are exclusively associated with those that collaborated? Especially since I have no know collaborators in my family, but my grandfather and one of his sisters were put on a train to Germany? (My grandfather's teenage sister was actually shipped off as a political enemy because she had spoken ill of the Nazis at the hair salon she worked at during the war. I believe she wasn't even 15 at the time. Thankfully, both of them survived).
This is a false equation, unless they don't teach the Nazi occupation of the US in antisemitic Europe. Care to fill me in on that one?
To be fair there is a bit of a difference between a tiny conventional army holding out against german panzer armies, and a brutal house to house campaign waged by the SS at it's pleasure. But yes - it was amazing, and a tragedy that the russians (one of our glorious allies i believe) stood by and waited for them to finish the job off
I believe they had no know Jewish casualties, but they also had a relatively small Jewish population and the highest ranking Nazi in the country actually warned the former Danish government about the Nazis' plans with the Jews, which gave them the time to organize and put those people out of the Nazis' grasp (and as such, out of harms way).
I agree with that. Of people I speak to, opinion is all over the place. Oddly, it is only on BigSoccer that the religious aspect keeps coming up In my day to day life, people tend to talk more of Israel, the Pals, Hamas, the blockade and Gaza. It seems at least to me, that those who are not so directly involved, see this more in the political, CNN view.