Euro 2020 (FINALE!!): Italia - Inghilterra

Discussion in 'Italy: National Teams' started by calabrese8, Jul 8, 2021.

  1. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I was wondering about this as well.

    I did not initially realise Italy had won either.
     
  2. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    This issue is a wash - all leagues/players are doping.

    The idea that the EPL players - supposedly the most physical league wouldn't be doping, is silly

    There is basically little effective testing
     
  3. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    After I posted , Donnarumma admitted he didn’t realize the pk’s were over and that Italy won. He thought there was another one to take. Pretty cool how focused he was though.
     
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  4. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    #554 Brasitusa, Jul 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
    Interesting. I was surprised too that he just walked away, serious, without celebrating. Do you have a link to that admission?

    I thought he was pissed off, like saying "see, everybody, how good I am? I won't even celebrate because you all aggravated me so much" (I don't know if you know the context of his transfer from AC Milan to PSG and how our fans started referring to him as "Dollarumma"). So I thought that's why he acted that way. But maybe it's just because he hadn't realized it, which is kind of funny. I'd love to read his statement on this. Post it, please.

    ----------

    Never mind, I found it (it's in Italian):

    https://sport.sky.it/calcio/europei/2021/07/13/donnarumma-rigori-italia-europei-video
     
  5. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Gary Lineker said so of Bonucci and Chiellini? What a POS!!!
    I'm *so* glad that we won! The English can be so insufferable! What an inelegant accusation towards two colleagues! And without an ounce of proof! Bonucci and Chiellini should sue for defamation.
     
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  6. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
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  7. Alex101

    Alex101 Member

    Mar 15, 2017
    I was too young, but were Italian Teams in the 80's and 90's really that much better than the current team? I was always under the assumption that Italy were a much stronger team in those decades, which might be true. But compared to Italy's team this year, were teams teams like the 86, 88, 94, 96 teams that much better.
     
  8. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Complex question to answer. Certainly past teams had more star players and this one is more like the whole being better than the sum of its parts, but I quite like our current team (not that it isn't in need of fixing in some positions like center forward and right back)... Also one needs to consider that soccer evolves and past teams had a different strategic / tactic environment, different advancements in athleticism conditioning, etc.

    Shouldn't we rather gauge teams according to objective criteria like results achieved? This current team certainly compares well, having won the Euro and having enjoyed a long undefeated streak and a long clean sheets streak.

    I'd say the current team is one of the best we've had... and some of the past teams were very good, too.

    Sorry for the non-answer but I do believe that it's the only real answer one can give.
     
  9. 'Uaglio

    'Uaglio Member+

    Jun 8, 2004
    NYC
    I've been following Gli Azzurri for almost 40 years now. I can tell you that the 80s and 90s teams had more household name superstars. They played in Serie A at a time when Serie A was the best league in the world. We also didn't have the Bosman ruling back then which opened up the floodgates for foreign players. So, CTs had a much deeper pool of players to pick from back in the day. That said, I think this midfield we have (along with attacking wingers) is of HIGHER quality than our 1994, 96, 98, 2000, and even 2002 teams. It's no coincidence we couldn't lift a trophy in that time period (as good as our defense and attack were).

    What I will say though is this....this the first team since the 1982 team that our team has gone out with the mentality to impose its will RELENTLESSLY on the other team. The 2006 team came close and they certainly had moments in the WC where they imposed their will.

    Mancini, however, has done something different with this team. They are almost always on the front foot. They will press you higher than most Italian teams of the past. They rely on possession much more than our older teams. And, most importantly, they "counter press" in a way our other teams haven't. So, when we lose the ball in our offensive zone, the defenders and midfielders are playing very tight and compact. That means they are ready to intercept quickly and go right back down.

    A great example of this is Barella's goal vs Belgium or Immobile's goal vs Switzerland.

    This new style isn't the ONLY way to win. However, as Arrigo Sacchi keeps saying, this style MAXIMIZES your chances of winning...at least in today's game.
     
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  10. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Exactly. After having given a non-committal answer to the other poster, I was thinking "however, our current midfield may be the best one we've ever had."
     
  11. 'Uaglio

    'Uaglio Member+

    Jun 8, 2004
    NYC
    It isn't better (yet) than Antognoni, Oriali, Conti, and Tardelli (with Cabrini screaming down the left wing) in '82. They would have to win a WC to enter that territory.

    Is it better than Pirlo, Gattuso, Camoranesi, and Perrotta in 06? Tough to say overall. I value a WC more than EC and Pirlo/Gattuso won just about everything there is to win...so I would give them the nod. But, clearly this midfield is better at possession and control of the game.
     
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  12. Pietro Calcio

    Pietro Calcio Member+

    Jul 28, 2007
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    After 1982 we were an aging team. We couldn't qualify for 1984 Euro because Enzo was still loyal to the Old Guard up until World Cup 1986. We only qualify for 1986 World Cup as the tournament previous winners which is not allowed anymore.

    Euro 88 was a very young team that wasn't quite battle hardened yet . Despite that Vicini brought in a lot of youth and we qualify for Euro 88 outright from the group and we did quite well getting to the semis against a strong Soviet Union team with experience.


    Should have won World Cup 1990 except for Zengas mishap at the San Paolo. We had the strong team

    In WC 90 Italia if that fluke in the semi-final doesn't happen we win against a lacklustre Germany in Rome easily. Cautious approach again bites us in the ass. Should have gone for the 2nd goal against Argentina.

    That team exited the tournament with no losses six wins one draw and had the best point totals above winner Germany and runner up Argentina . Only conceding 2 goals ( late goal in the semis and one other in the 3rd place match ) . Baggio was just getting warmed up .

    Euro 1992 we just missed qualifying ( pitted again against a strong Soviet Union team in our group )


    WC 1994 was another missed opportunity with a strong and star studded squad ( another manager with cautious approach) Slow start with one loss against Ireland in the group stage from a long distance fluke goal . We then go on to the Finals only missing on pks. One loss , 2 draws, 4 wins .

    Euro 1996 Sacchi was still in charge and again playing too cautious. 96 Euro expanded from 4 to 8 teams so we qualify against a strong Croatia side as runner up in group. Missed penalty by Zola in the last group match against Germany sees us out game ends in draw. We actually had the better GD than the Czechs but the Euros uses head to head as first tie breaker and they beat us .

    WC 1998 another missed opportunity playing again too cautious . We exited the tournament again without losing 3 wins , 2 draws and the French on their home spoil at St Denis couldnt put a goal past us in 90 mins. Another cautious manager in Cesare Maldini . Baggio comes on in extra time and totally threatens the French but too little too late and we are out again on pks.

    Euro 2000 great team but another cautious manager with Zoff. We win every group game and then we win the quarterfinals and the Semis against the hosts Holland in a fantastic match and display of Defense being one man down red carded from around the 30th min . Beat Holland on penalty kicks and we go on to dominate the French in the final all the way to screw it up in the final minutes with 2 chances blown to make the score 3 zip ( instead of 1 zip in extra time ) . French equalize on a bad defensive clearance and blunder by Toldo and the rest is history .

    WC 2002 ...Cautious Manager again in Trapattoni. Blown chance . But we were also screwed over by a corrupt Fifa .

    We had fantastic players all those tournaments in all positions playing on top Serie A teams when Serie A was at its peak .

    Imagine if we had a proper manager who could make good use of the midfield instead of relying on old safer tactics ? Yeah ......probably would have at least another trophy or 2
     
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  13. Hulk_Hogan_Italia

    AC Milan
    Italy
    Aug 17, 2005
    Toronto, Canada
    Midfield General, johnny6 and calabrese8 repped this.
  14. Tifoso

    Tifoso Moderator
    Staff Member

    Juventus
    Italy
    Feb 24, 2007
    northern California
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Maiale;)
     
  15. BVBFNM

    BVBFNM Member+

    Apr 3, 2016
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    If I'm not mistaken, that means pork tenderloin, right?

    I have a vague understanding of Italian through my knowledge of Spanish, as they are sister languages.
     
  16. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Very well said. The main difference now is that Mancini is bolder and catenaccio is over, which is why I'm excited for Qatar.
     
  17. calabrese8

    calabrese8 Member+

    Feb 9, 2008
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I was thinking more faccia di merda
     
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  18. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #568 falvo, Jul 22, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
    Through time, players became faster , training methods and tactis also changed the game.

    Italy used to play a defensive and counterattack with play makers like Conti, Baggio, Zola and Delpiero .

    Those roles and positions seemed to have changed though.

    It worked in the 1980''s and 90's.

    4th place at World Cup 1978 in Argentina where Italy beat the hosts 1-0.
    4th place 1980 Euro at home
    1st place 1982 World Cup in Spain
    3rd place 1988 Euro in West Germany
    3rd place 1990 World Cup at home
    2nd place losing in pk's to Brazil at the Rose Bow in Pasadena

    5th place in 1998 World Cup in France losing to home team on pk's
    2nd place at Euro 2000 losing to France with Golden Goal

    They got 5 medals in 8 tournaments.

    That is a pretty good run I'd say.

    I also agree that the proper CT and picking of player, Italy will always go far.

    Not sure what the FIGC was thinking when they chose Ventura but he was a failure in not qualifying Italy for the World Cup.
     
  19. Ameijoas

    Ameijoas Red Card

    Angola
    Jul 13, 2021
    Those teams, save the 86 ones were all capable of winning the tournament, like this one was. It's a different era. The game is, for sure, a lot faster now and so it's hard to compare those teams to this one. The 1990 team, for example, was the best team in that tournament. It failed to capture or go for a second goal vs Argentina and that cost them that cup. This team would continue to seek a second goal. That's the main difference in mentality. To say that Italian teams never looked for a second goal, is not accurate either. 1986 team was not a team that could win a tournament. That said, it did draw with the eventual winner Argentina, but it rightfully fell to a better France. 1990, 94, 98, 2002, 2006 were all teams that were more than capable of winning. 2010 was not. 2014 could have gone further one they hit the knockout stages but couldn't find a goal vs Costa Rica who parked a nice bus and scored on their one chance on goal. Then there was the red card debacle vs Uruguay and the rest was history. 2018 didn't happen.

    Still hard to compare. There were years we had amazing forwards and just a hard working midfield with little flair; 98 and 2002, and vice versa like this year.

    One thing that is for sure and I'm glad it is, defending is in the Italian DNA and there's no reason why it shouldn't be. It wins tournaments, and we saw when we needed to defend in this tournament we haven't forgotten how.
     
  20. Ameijoas

    Ameijoas Red Card

    Angola
    Jul 13, 2021

    This isn't accurate. You say it like it was the only thing they played. Did they play only counter-attack in 1994? Sacchi was not a counter attack team. Did we have to defend for long spells against Brazil in the final? Yes, because it was a team with a strong attack. You defend when necessary and a matter of survival. That's what defense is for. In the extra time Italy flipped the switch and was on the offensive. Baggio had a torn hamstring and missed probably the best opportunity of the game. The other was the ball that went off of Pagliuca against the post.

    Italy didn't counter attack only in 1990 either. They came out and sought a goal, THEN, counter attacked. That mentality of not seeking a second immediately after cost them against Argentina. Under Zoff Italy was more defensive. The semi final of 2000 was the absolute best defensive performance of any team ever. That was also a matter of survival Why? Zambrotta got a bogus red card early. After that Holland were playing with 6 attackers. The also got two penalties. One was bullshit. Toldo saved one and they missed the other.

    Italy defended amazingly well. It was a clinic, and we won with penalties. Make no mistake about it, we were the deserving winners. If you can't beat us with 102minutes of an extra man and with two penalties given, then you don't deserve to win.

    We didn't just defende France in that final either, but on two counter attacks Del Piero missed sitters. TWO times. Those opportunities looked exactly like Del Piero's goal in the semi final of 2006 against Germany. He missed. All he had to do was hit the ball with some calm and we capture that Euro. It didn't happen and France got a fluke goal at the end of the game, and it looked like we deflated for the extra time when Trezeguet ended it rather early.

    The idea that Italy played catenaccio (hasn't happened since the 70's) or were just a counter attacking team till this year is such a lame British invention. I am surprised that Italians have fallen for it too. If Italy played catenaccio, Portugal won with catenaccio 5 years ago. England played catenaccio in the final. None of that is true. That style died 40+ years ago. Hyper defense is not the same thing.

    This team did seek goals after they scored first, with high intensity. That is what people think is some new revelation. Some teams in the past did too, but the difference is that Italy was mostly content closing out games against lesser opposition without playing too high an intensity in opening rounds. Sometimes it would cause some problems when the other team would work out a goal. In friendlies, forget about it. They weren't going to go for goal more than what was needed, unless there was a new players being tested and he wanted to prove himself. Then you saw full effort. Italy was not Germany that punished lesser teams. Under Mancini it looks like they do now.

    People said the same thing under Prandelli. How quick we forget?

    Because he didn't believe in defense or midfield against Spain with a stupid 4-2-4, then he had no ideas against Sweden and just let them cross the ball in over and over, replacing Verratti in deep midfield position with Insigne. That means he's either stupid, extremely stupid, or was paid off to sabotage the team. Or both!
     
  21. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Yes, I love what you said here. Absolutely right.
     
  22. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    No, I'm saying traditionally in general, Italy’s forte was always defense, catenaccio and/or counterattack.

    I don't mean the national team always played that way but that was always the mentality.

    In 1994 I was actually at the final in Pasadena and Sacchi had the team playing zone. Their defense though was still the best with Baresi and Maldini in the back anchoring the defense. Gigi Appoloni, Roberto Mussi and Antonio benarrivo were just along for the ride.

    Brazil couldn't do anything and Baresi played the game of his life.
     
  23. Ameijoas

    Ameijoas Red Card

    Angola
    Jul 13, 2021
    I know that's what you are saying, and you're wrong.

    Again, I can provide a dozen examples where you are wrong. It was not the exclusive mentality. That's a British invention.

    Italians defend when needed.
    In past editions sometimes they didn't seek a second goal right away.
    Sometimes that was costly (Argentina 1990), other times it resulted in a draw in the first round, an obstacle that they usually overcame. In knockout rounds, everyone tightens up.

    Catennacio died in 70's. So that's wrong.
    Counter attack only, is also wrong.

    Italy will never forget how to defend, and that is right and good.
     
  24. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #574 falvo, Jul 22, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
    That is not wrong as the 1978 and 1982 teams were totally cantenaccio and counterattacks.

    I remember vividly how Enzo Bearzot had the team playing.

    Zoff , Scirea, Collovati, Gentile , Cabrini, Bergomi , Tardelli, Marini , Oriali, Antognoni Bruno Conti, Grazini, Paolo Rossi and they had Altobelli and Causio as reserve forwards.

    That was a total defensive team.

    They barely made it out of the 1st round and the only reason they did was because of the lone goal score by Ciccio Graziani's goal against Cameroon.

    Then they grew stronger as they kept playing together beaiting Argentina , Brazil , Poland and then West Germany to win it all.

    Then it died in 1986.
     
  25. Ameijoas

    Ameijoas Red Card

    Angola
    Jul 13, 2021
    Wrong again, 1982 was not catenaccio. Do you know what catenaccio is

    What is catenaccio, without looking it up? Describe it.

    Like I suspected, you think playing defensive is catenaccio. That's wrong. That team scored four on Brazil, 2 on Argentina, 2 on Poland and 3 on Germany. It played counter attack very well, but not ONLY counter attack. What's the difference?

    Yeah, like typical Italian teams only do enough to qualify then turning it on in knock out rounds. That doesn't mean they played catenaccio. They did barely enough in 90 and 94, even 98, 2002 as well.

    Italy hasn't used the real catenaccio since the 70's. Fact.
     

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