Just to note how many countries are part of the political boycott... As I've previously said, we can legitimately debate whether the political boycott makes sense. Whether it's constructive or not. But one can't successfully argue that there are no serious human-rights violations.
he fears racist attacks, but choses not to go to Ukraine because of the prejudices about the country........ interesting combination. We have many African people here. Don't see the problem..... So please don't try to make it Ukraines fault, just because of people's prejudices about the country. It says nothing about the country.
GERMANS believed to be linked to neo-Nazi groups ambushed British football fans in Frankfurt in the early hours yesterday. Riot police moved quickly to try to separate hundreds of Germans, armed with baseball bats, and the British fans who had travelled to see the World Cup qualifier match, but the fighting with bottles, glasses, tables and chairs continued into yesterday morning. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...270/Neo-Nazis-ambush-England-soccer-fans.html
So, you would not be going to Russia in 2018? I mean if we're talking racism in football, Ukraine has mostly been spared from it.
Exactly, racism in Russia is extreme..... Ukraine is nothing in comparison. Don't really see anything to worry about.... I could guarantee that nothing would happen to them. Talk about being prejudiced.... They haven't probably even been in the country, just read all the press, and got the imagination of Ukraine as some kind of nazi-anarchy-state.....lol Very strange attitude.... Being afraid of racism, and at the same time being so prejudiced and close-minded towards other nations (Ukraine in this case).......
I repeat: This is not about me. I would have no reservations to going to EURO 2012 in the Ukraine. I'm white, after all. But clearly non-Caucasians such as the Walcotts do have reservations. They're worried. (And I dare say they'd be worried about Russia 2018 as well). Well, there are two issues here: 1) Police brutality and misconduct (often racially motivated) 2) Extremist ultras (to name one instance: who for one pride themselves for having made Lviv's stadium's a no-go zone for non-Caucasians. Karpaty Lviv supports these ultras and delegates a share of ticket sales to these thugs and hence has no clean hands in this). Of course, Ukraine is far from being the only country with such problems. But it's rather disingeneous to deny their existence. And it's dangerous. Cuz if you deny the existence of a problem, you won't be able to adress it... Anyway, this whole racism/police misconduct issue is an issue which has nothing to do with the political boycott. Yet such matters naturally attract media scrutiny. Any high-profile event invites such scrutiny. If you don't like such scrutiny, one ought not host such events. Qatar for instance is already receiving a lot of attention regarding labour conditions, homophobia and other human-rights issues. In China '08 there was also lots.
They'd have very little to worry about. Less than in Spain or Italy. I went to dozens of matched with my African classmates. The Walcotts just exposed their ignorance to the situation by reading the sun as truth. Of course hosting big events causes scrutiny. Unless you're Russia or China and them everyone shuts up.
Interesting how after Russian agents attempted to murder the president of Ukraine Germany said nothing. After weakening the best chance for prosperity and freedom that Ukraine had Germany and many European nations welcome Russian government officials with open arms. If anything Germany is complicit in yanukovich's ascension to power because they supported he Russian government's attempts to assassinate Ukraine's president.
I dare say the situation is regionally quite different. Lviv sounds pretty bad. Neo-Nazis strongest party in the city, extremist ultras enforcing a no-go zone in the stadium. Naturally, things will be better during the EURO. But that's pretty darn bad... Governments do. Agreed. They can't afford to piss those countries off. But the media attention and human-rights organisations' focus is just as great.
Well, do you know where they got their information from? Cheap shot... The article notes the Foreign Office's advice: "Foreign nationals have been the victims of violent crime in Kyiv and other major cities. In some cases attacks have been racially motivated. Travellers of Asian or Afro-Caribbean descent and individuals belonging to religious minorities should take extra care." Tourists generally take such governmental warnings pretty darn seriously...
Read the US ones for most of Europe. If they took them seriously they'd never visit Italy let alone Mexico.
I guess you mean the party "SVOBODA"? Then I have to disappoint you.... It's not a neo-nazi party..... It's just populistic ultra right party, such as Partij voor de Vrijheid (Netherlands), Perussuomalaiset (Finland), Sverigedemokraterna (Sweden), Front National (France), Lega Nord (Italy)...... you get my point´? The difference is that these parties mentioned above are in the parliament of these countries.... Well, Svoboda have no places in the national parliament..... Only regional..... And it's nothing in comparison with Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands – Die Volksunion, NPD that you have in Germany.....which also has places in regional parliaments..... ..... So know the facts before you express yourself. Otherwise, you just embaress yourself. There is a lot of Ukrainian nationalism in Western parts of Ukraine (Lviv including). But this nationalism has nothing to do with extreme far-right movements, or skinhead movements or other scums.... It's not so "damn bad" in Ukraine... I don't see where you get this info from? By listening to you it seems that the situation in Ukraine is extreme.... Footballer families avoid Ukraine because they are scared of nazis.... WTF? Dude, it's just sensational press blowing things up..... Ukrainians are generally very friendly!...... Avoiding going to Ukraine due to fear for nazis is just a sign of total ignorance and a high degree of prejudices...... It is not "pretty damn bad"... Sure, it's a lot to be done.... But it's not worse than Italy or France..... Examples? * You remember "White Christmas" in Italy? Or why not the freshest Amnesty report: "The number of homophobic and transphobic attacks reported in the last few years in Italy remains a matter of concern," said Nicola Duckworth. "Hate crimes have a deep impact not only on the immediate victim but also on the group with which that victim identifies."" http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/italy-fails-adopt-measures-tackle-hate-crimes-2011-07-26 * Or why doesn't anyone answer to my post regarding German nazis beating English fans? GERMANS believed to be linked to neo-Nazi groups ambushed British football fans in Frankfurt in the early hours yesterday. Riot police moved quickly to try to separate hundreds of Germans, armed with baseball bats, and the British fans who had travelled to see the World Cup qualifier match, but the fighting with bottles, glasses, tables and chairs continued into yesterday morning. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...270/Neo-Nazis-ambush-England-soccer-fans.html .... Well, I would be VERY VERY suriprised if such thing happened in Ukrain! If hundred of nazis with baseball bats attacked foreigners.... I would be really surprised...... I am not denying xenophobia or occurence of hate crimes in Ukraine..... But we don't have to exaggerate the situation. It's not worse than in many other Western European countries.. ok? Perhaps if you are walking late at night in some strange area, you may have the bad luck to meet some drunk idiots wanting to have a fight with you....... It can happen everywhere... We have no "skinhead armies"... Walcotts are just stupid, ignorant and prejudiced to believe such things...... The hate crimes that occurs in Ukraine are not systemized, it's some stupid drunk idiots that may attack somebody.....This shit can happen everywhere, sadly enough..... But it's no nazi-epedemia here.... '.. Please don't exaggerate the situation.
Well, tourist numbers from Germany tend to be quite strongly influenced by such travel advice/media coverage. It also affects tour operators and airlines and in turn tourists. Just look at Egypt and its difficulties in getting the tourists to come back in the same numbers as before the rev. Any bad news is poison for tourism. Germans have also been staying away from Greece. And that's not so much for security reasons, but strikes and strained relations.
Hm, a march of their's sure looked fascist/neo-Nazi to me. And the party previously was called Social-National Party... They've rebranded themselves, but under the hood, it's the same brown ugliness. Extremists here in Germany have also tried the same, calling themselves innocently PRO-DEUTSCHLAND. I'll grant you that such parties do exist everywhere. My main point is that a stadium's a no-go zone for certain people. That sure is off-putting to plenty of fans. Even if that problem is absent during the EURO. People on holiday just don't want to worry... So even if the risk is small, they'll stay often away. Worrying after all diminishes holiday quality. Wouldn't stop me, as said. But I'm not the one subject to such discrimination.
I'm qute well-traveled. I have been studing in Europe, I've been working in many countires, not to mention all the travel trips I've made.... So I'm not just patriotic.... I have a solid base of comparison to other countries! This is what I've noticed in many Western Europan people or U.S. citizens. People have very strong prejudices and stereotypes about Ukraine. For them it's some poor Soviet shithole with poverty, maffia, prostitutues and so on... It's dangerous and it's gray here.... hmm... Well, this image of Ukraine is a part of many peoples world-view.... When they come to Ukraine they try to find things that validates and affirms their worldview....For example, if you see a hobo in Ukraine you think directly "what a poor" country.... But when you see a hono in your own homeland, you don't even notice them... Am I right or am i right? Or think about Rome (Italy). Extremely many beggars there. But when you are in Italy - you tend to remember "romantic Italy", because it's the image you have of the country., you forget about the beggars...... But if in Ukraine, it's something you will remember, because it affirms your worldview. Or for example, Paris. People think of Paris as some romantic capital. Well, modern Paris is very dirty, and very criminal place to be.... But people try to overlook this things and just concentrate on romance.... But when in Ukraine, they try to concentrate themselves on the things that represents Ukraine in their worldview "poverty, prostitutes, criminals". This is a basic psychology. People always tend to notice things that affirms their worldview.... It is much easier to concentrate on Ukraine's problems, because it feels more normal that this country has huge problems.... It is in your mind impossible to think that some eastblock-country has problems on the same level as developed Western Europe..... You think everything is worse in Ukraine... In these thread we've been concentrating of all Ukraines problems, overlooking that the same problems exist in many other countries...... You here "Italy has racism", you think "ehh, nothing that concerns me" You here "Ukraine has racism", you think "crazy third world country, I could be killed for being black, better stay home" Am I wrong? I constantly try to be objective in this thread... But you people are showing way to much prejudices and stereotypes about Ukraine... You think it HAS to be worse than your countries..... The same news about skinheads wouldn't scare you if it was US, because you think of US as civilized country..... But the same news scares you if it is in Ukraine.... because you don't know anything about Ukraine, you have only bad stereotypes, therefore, in your mind, it seems very dangerous.
The only problems is in yourselves..... I can give you people thousands of articles about racist attacks and crazy skinhead-camps in countries as Italy, US, Spain, Germany and so on......already forgot Norway last summer? But it will not scare you away !!! Why? Because you are already acquainted with these countries! You KNOW that these news are pretty much overexaggerated!!!!! That these stuff are only some stupid incidents that are not representative for the whole country.........But you are NOT acquainted with Ukraine! You know nothing about this country (except the bad stereotypes), and therefore, such news could easily be true in your mind, and you tend to think of these incidents as representative for the whole country. So the real problem is not in Ukraine.... The real problem is how you people enterpret news and information. Walcotts family and many people in this thread has clearly shown their prejudiced world-view... By generalizing the whole country due to some sensational news and articles.... And not generalazing other "developed" countries for the same kind of news..... This is a clear case of prejudice towards Ukraine........ you people talk about nazis here, about democracy.... But look at yourselves... You think the worst kind of things of us Ukrainians, you generalize us, and you have strong prejudices... Before critizising others - look at yourself and think of the reason you are critisizing us.
True. It's worth noting that Italy, originally the favourite to host EURO 2012, arguably lost out due to calciopoli and racist/violent hooliganism. And Poland/Ukraine won because after the Orange Revolution there was a lot of goodwill for the Ukraine. People wanted the EURO to help the Ukraine on her "way to Europe". It's also the political reason why Poland went for the joint bid with her Eastern neighbour. It was a very political decision. A good one. Sadly, the years since in regards to Ukraine's development have been disappointing. For Ukrainians, for us Europeans. We're collectively suffering from having our hopes dashed. And the confrontation between the EU and the Ukraine - most starkly shown in the political boycott movement - is kinda the unravelling of all those dashed dreams.
Wow, fresh news! Just a week ago.... US Soldier Trained Neo-Nazis in Florida for "Race War" The 10 members of a Florida-based neo-Nazi militant group arrested last week received training in close-quarters combat and other Army-approved tactics from a member of the US Army National Guard, according to court filings. http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/05/report-us-soldier-trained-neo-nazis
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16056399 Germany's neo-Nazi underground "Ten murders blamed on a neo-Nazi underground cell have raised fresh fears about far-right extremism in Germany. BBC Radio One Newsbeat's Sima Kotecha went to investigate. It is difficult to digest that places like this still exist in modern-day Germany." .... let me continue the sentence that most readers in Western Europe probably would agree to.... " .......But it wouldn't be difficult to imagine something like that in underdeveloped Ukraine."
...continue.... next up is SWEDEN ! Sweden: 'Racist Sniper' Charged Over Shootings A Swedish man accused of targeting immigrants during a year-long campaign of shootings has been officially charged with murder. Peter Mangs will face a total of 20 charges, including three murders and 12 attempted murders, after attacks that gripped the southern Swedish city of Malmo with fear during 2009 and 2010. http://www.klfm967.co.uk/news/world-news/674385/sweden-racist-sniper-charged-over-shootings/
I can do this all night, but fortunately I have better things to do....... But I guess my point is clear.... When shit happens in developed countries it's OK, because it's not representative of the country, just a crazy incident........ when it happens in Ukraine or other post-Soviet countries, well, then it's representative for the country, the situation in the country is therefore critical, the country is very dangerous and you could be attacked by nazis just because of your skincolour.. Don't go there! I'm so tired of you people constantly showing this disrespect towards Ukraine and Ukrainian people.... Look at yourselves... You have the same problems! Stop being so prejudicative.
I can agree to that. I don't know anybody who is not disappointed by current political movement of Ukraine. It's really sad.... But it's not okay to boycott and stuff. Politicians are here just temporary, but the nation lives on..... If you really want Ukraine to become a part of the EU-group, you should try to show us respect. You should come to our countries, get new acquaintances. Integrate with each other... So that Ukrainians can feel that they belong with you.... Only in this way you can integrate Ukraine and Ukrainian people..... You are just harming the country with your boycotts and constantly bad news in the press.... Europeans then think Ukraine is some kind of European Somalia.... Ukraine then gets isolated... and Ukrainian people will not be wanting to integrate in your society, where people think that we are a bad nation..... So this boycott and constant negative media is just harming our people and our nation.... You are not harming Janukovich & co. It's harming us, regular people. These guys are financed by oligarch money (energy and metals industry), and this industry will be fine regardless the boycotts....... But for regaluar people, this was a great opportunity to get new European friends and acquaintances.... We are open for the whole world! First time, pehaps ever in history?.... And your stupid Merkel and co. are destroying this unique opportunity for our nation... Will never forgive. ---- ---- Actually, it's exactly what is happening at the moment. Earlier people thought "cool, we can have a beer with some English fans" etc... People looked forward to greet and welcome fans from the whole Europe in Ukraine. What's happening now? Since you started your "cold war" against Ukraine, with boycotts and constant negative news about Ukraine in the media, many Ukrainians I know changed their view to the attitude: "well, if they don't like us, they can go to hell". You don't understand that you are insulting regular people with your constant critics and boycotts... Eventually people will get tired of this shit and simply ask you to go to hell..... So if you really want to integrate Ukraine to Europe, start to respect Ukrainian people...... what is happening now is just a distancation of Ukraine and Europe... and this is no good thing.... You lose Ukrainians interest to you. It's like you seeing a nice girl you want to get to know better, really beautiful... And this girl start to critisize and insult you... Well, regardless of how much you wanted that girls before, you will now think that she is a bitch, and to hell with her....... Perhaps a stupid analogy, but you get the point...... Ukrainians want eurointegration, but they will not stand on their knees, if you start insulting them, they will tell you to go to hell....
Yes. I think this explains a lot of the emotional responses from many politicians, journalists and people who followed Ukraine's revolution. People who had a lot of goodwill towards the Ukraine, but are most disappointed how things have deteriorated since. Yanukovich is deeply disliked. Perhaps one could have limited the boycott to the presidential summit Yanukovich organised. It'd have sent the right message without overshadowing the entire EURO. I wonder. As many Europeans with an interest in European affairs, I despise Yanukovich. So perhaps I and many others were too quick to go for an entire boycott. Perhaps a partial boycott - and one more targeted at the Yanukovich government than the EURO - would have been a more surgical solution. But then again, the media attention is desired. Yanukovich is supposed to be embarrased bigtime. Hm, outright membership is WAY down the road, far off in the future. But the Ukraine should be firmly integrated with Europe. It's the best for the country. It's key to her becoming a fully democratic and prosperous country. An uncertain course between Europe and authoritarian Russia simply spells no end of trouble. As we're seeing right now. There is a risk in such measures singling out a country playing into the hands of regressive forces. Yanukovich, Putin, etc. That's why perhaps boycotting the presidential summit would have been enough. At least that's the direction my thinking is evolving. Currently in a bit more thoughtful a mood.