You have no clue about the real situation in Ukraine....... You believe everything you read.... How can you even call Yanukovich a dictator, and call it a regime? It's clear that you do not know anything about world politics..... Belarus, there we have a dictator and regime..... Ukraine? It's corrupt.... but it's far, far, far away from Belarus. You're just embarrasing youself.
How can you be so narrow-minded? You are talking to an Ukrainian guy here..... who probably knows the situation better? And still, you believe that everything you read in your newspapers is correct..... regardless what people from Ukraine tell you......... But... not the first time you Germans believe everything you hear from your dear leaders.... Critical thinking doesn't seem so popular ?
Is it so very hard to acknowledge that many Europeans do genuinely care about the human rights record of countries hosting of major sport events? Particularly so in a European country? Resorting to flimsy claims that people are misinformed, naive and brainwashed smacks of desperation. It's the type of disingenious argument one has to expect from authoritarian regimes (e.g. Lukashenko, Putin, Assad etcetc). Of course, this begs the question: Who brainwashes them? And then those who argue in such a manner have to conjure up some oddball conspiracy theories. Again, that's the standard M.O. of repressive regimes. By all means, we can legitimately debate the question as to whether or not a political boycott is helpful or not. But one cannot honestly dismiss people's genuine concerns over human rights violations.
Sorry, but do you really consider it being a human right violation? Why so? The process against Tymoshenko began before Janukovich even became a president. She's been listed by Interpol many years ago. Her cooperator, Pavlo Lazarenko, was sentenced in the US with 9 yrs imprisonment. He stole about 200 000 000 dollars from Ukraine. He cooperated with Tymoshenko. Tymoshenko signed an agreement with Russia, in which Ukraine pays much more for gas than you Germans do... For this, she got money in her own pocket.... But Ukrainian people are now paying huge sums for their energy........ So please... Don't make an angel of her... She is not Mandela.... She is not some kind of political prisoner blah blah..... I don't know anybody who thinks that Tymoshenko is unguilty. Most people find her guilty.....That's why I tell you that you are brainwashed... You only hear about how good she is and how badly they treat her.... And how Germany and your politicians step in and plays some kind of Batman of human rights.... They do it only because they want to give themselves a good PR... and EURO2012 is a world wide thing.... which gives them free commercial all around the world.... For them Ukraine is a country that means nothing... They would never dare to do the same with Russia.... But who cares about Ukraine? Let's tell people a lot of bullsh*t and make ourselves heroes and defenders of human rights.......... .. If they really wanted they could freeze the belongnings of Janukowich in European banks... They could forbid him and Party of Regions entering EU..... they are not..... I see no problem of other countries interfer and defend human rights.... But Tymoshenko is not this case..... It's propagande in your own countries to make you feel that your politicians are so damn good! The only injustice in this is that many other politicians should be prisoned as well.. Not only Tymoshenko.... But making Tymoshenko into a political prisoner is just laughable... It really shows how little you know about Ukraine... and how naive you are.... This kind "boycott" of yours only harms our country and our people.... Even those who hate Janukovich most of everything in their life think that you are damaging us...... You are taking measures against Ukraine and Ukrainian people!!!! That's wrong.... If you really concider Janukovich being a bad guy, then please attack him and his crew.... But now, you are damaging our image, giving us a bad view, you are taking tourists from us etc etc.... You reallt destroyed our great event.... We've been under Soviet pressure for so many years... Independent for only 20... This tournament is a huge thing for us... And your f*cking politicians is destroying our happiness..... You should be ashamed
Believe me... Nobody supports Janukovich anymore. Many people hate him, but nevertheless, they do not consider Tymoshenko being a human rights violation.... They think of Tymoshenko being the same as Janukovich....... So your press is really brainwashing you. (And I can not understand how you keep on arguing and pretending knowing the situation better than people who lives in Ukraine?.... It's so sick... For you, your media is equal to true? Regardless of what other people say?)..... "No, Ukrainian people... we know the situation in your country better than you do".... WTF?????
Yes of course German and European politicians care about human rights, unless of course there is money to be made in which case they are suddenly quiet.
From political point scoring to sensational media scaremongering. It's all a load of bo!!ocks. I am looking forward to celebrating a month of football, make new friends and have lasting memories. The empty VIP seats will not be from those satisfying their consciences but those not interested in the game and hoping a gesture will gain them more support back home. How stupid they think us voters are. On the media ... I even saw a TV news piece where the reporter asked a group of 'rascist, fascist thugs' in Donetsk what they would do if England fans draped their flags over national statues ... Well what would you expect as an answer? ... and why didn't they ask what they would do if a group of England fans and wanted to have a joke and beer with them? I hope in a few months ordinary Ukrainians will be celebrating and being celebrated for their hospitality and not having to continue to feel they have to apologise for things out of their control !!!!
This coming from a guy whose own government is currently holding thousands of people under arrest just because they are peacefully protesting against the ECB?? (Not that my government is any better, see the Genoa G8 tortures or the multiple illegitimate murders or forced suicides of temporary detainees all across the country...a young Ukrainian national whose only 'fault' was having irregular papers being the last victim...which didn't stop our unelected foreign minister from babbling his mouth about Ukrainian jails, obviously ) We 'Europeans' are just big hypocrites....good at vehemently criticizing (on Facebook, obviously...never met a pro-Western, pro-liberal-democracy human rights mullah who actually went abroad to demonstrate in public) culturally distant, non-aligned nations, and even better at missing the huge beams of wood stuck inside our own eyes.
Err, you miss a crucial point. Even those guilty deserve a) a fair trial b) humane imprisonment On both counts the EU, many member states, OSCE, the United States, numerous human-rights organisations have protested against what the Ukraine is doing. And more to the point, the Ukraine is violating against treaties signed by her. It's the EU, OSCE, Council of Europe, many European countries, etcetc... Yes, indeed they could. But you know, in international relations, one progressively amps up the pressure. From say delaying the EU association treaty with the Ukraine, then to not attending summits organised by the Ukrainian government, or - well - sports events. Sanctions such as the ones you list would be a further, later, step. This is kinda Diplomacy 101... By not attending some summit? By not attending a football game? Don't blame the West if Ukraine's rebranding is not working. Blame those who've messed it up. And that's Yanukovich.
a) Alright, how can you tell that she is not getting a fair trial? You've read that in the news. But now when you know her crimes, what do you think the punishment should be in a "fair trial". How is the trial not fair? I doubt that she would get any other sentence in Germany by German Law. b) I don't like Yanukovich or his team. They are the opposite of my political views.... But..... Tymoshenko isn't any dumb victim.... Why do you think she is not getting a human treatment? Because of some photos of her beaten up? No matter of how much I dislike Yanukovich, but I really don't believe he would like to see her harmed in the prison. It would really harm his reputation. He gets nothing out of it.... Why are you so sure that Tymoshenko hasn't caused that marks herself? She is not stupid, you know... Do you really believe she would sit quietly for 7 years in prison? Of course she is trying to do some scandal.... And you people believe her.... By destroying our reputation and pointing us out as some kind of Belarus... People get scared and don't want to visit the country... We lose millions in tourism, money that would go to ordinary people...... So by your stupid campaign, you destroy our tourism and investment perspectives...... which would give normal people income, and bring investments into the country, which further gives people jobs and wellfare...... You don't think of that consequences? I really think that countries should help each other in order to get a democratic society... But in case Tymoshenko, it's just exaggerated... It's hipocracy... EU tries to shift focus of their own economical problems, and making themselves freedom-fighters..... Tymoshenko is an issue, yes... But not so much issue as you've made it...... You've taken it so far that you harm ordinary people of Ukraine and our perspectives. Thank you very much.
Admins, is it possible to shut down this thread? Here we are talking football, and helping each other to plan our trip and have a good time in Poland/Ukraine! If you want do discuss politics or express your hate towards Ukraine, I bet there are other forums for that purpose.
You know, if Yanukovich were now to meet the EU's demands, all this would go away... Our leaders would visit your country. No more political boycott. Case closed. It's entirely up to Yanukovich.
Fair trial would be a start. And decent treatment in prison... I understand the Yanukovich government has promised to alter some old Soviet law to that effect, but has been purposefully dragging its feet on that count. Of course, it's not only Tymoshenko... Many other orangist politicians have been imprisoned or have fled the country. And charged on pretty flimsy grounds. Say that former minister who got charged for helping out his chauffeur in getting an apartment... Yanukovich is trying to weaken the opposition through all these prosecutions. So yes, even if they are guilty of certain charges, they're in prison because of that political vendetta.
And the Christopher Street Day ended in a fiasco in Ukraine. Well I'm interested who's travelling to this country in a view weeks.
Well, it's obviously pretty bad. Demonstrators have a right to be protected. But in fairness, this is not unique to the Ukraine. I've heard of similar CSD-related troubles in other - perfectly democratic - Eastern European countries.
SAFETY/SECURITY in Ukraine: - As a rule, there are no dangerous neighborhoods you are not advised to visit. - Speaking English/other languages on the street, in general, it is safe everywhere. - Metro/subway is, in general, safe. There are the special metro police, and, as a rule, there is a police office at each metro station. - Street crime/pick pocketing occurs, just be vigilant, don't pick a "lost" wallet from the sidewalk, that's the most usual scam. - Racism and race-related crimes/attitudes occur, but racial tolerance is – in general - equal to this in Europe. - Ukraine has a long history of women - men equality coming from the Soviet times. - unlike in the U.S., Ukrainians have just a few friends for life. At the same time, making acquaintances is easy and you may expect to be invited to someone’s home easily.
This shows your lack of understanding what human rights mean better than anything else. I doubt most of the Ukranian people agree with you. Embarassing.
After reading two pages worth by the two clueless German posters I would like to note several things: 1. Yanokovych is not a dictator: he was democratically elected with minimal (if any) violations, according to the international election monitoring bodies. 2. Tymoshenko did, indeed, have the trial following the Ukrainian law. I do realize it may or may not make it fair or whatever. But the Constitution of Ukraine had been followed. Ukrainian judicial process had been followed. I see nothing but cheap PR coup being accomplished by Merkel and co in the face of VERY uncertain elections in various German states. SDP may just be pushing the current bunch of german leaders out of office.
ok join a Christopher Street Day parade in your own country then, if you want to express your "understanding of human rights". don't come here and teach us how to live. Btw... I've been in Germany (and all the rest of Europe)... have to say that Germany is by far the most political correct country in the whole world..... People are like zombies.... all are programmed into thinking the same thing..... That was kind of shocking thing to see.... I didn't matter what you told them. It was impossible to change their world view....... Never met so brainwashed people.
Brainwashed by humanity? lol you seem really dumb. In my country no one has to fear if he wants to join a Christopher Street Day. But hey, let's violate people because of their nature just to be some kind of "other". That's the most dumb post I've ever read. If the majority of Ukranian thinks that way no wonder your country didn't progress at all since 1990.
Because progress is measured by politicaly correct German values? These values are by definition the right ones? Guys, you have no critical thinking or respect to other people in this world. Instead of discussing the situation objectively, you are constantly saying that you are right and we are wrong... Several Ukrainians here told their opinion... and you haven't even been in that country.... and you still claim that you are right..... This is a proof of real nonchalance, and BESSERWISSEREI ! Typical German behaviour.