If you bring him off the bench, you have to give the arm band to somebody who will be a regular starter, but who do you give it to?
I too think it is premature to toss Marco into the dinosaur heap. On the one hand, many times when it appeared that Marco held the ball too long the problem was not that he was slow mentally or physically. The problem was that he had noone to whom he could pass the ball. Marco did not have a healthy Olsen or Moreno running into space. It seemed as if players stopped and watched him rather than support him when he possessed the ball. On the other hand, I think the rise in the level of play in the MLS may have made the "playmaker" obsolete. Teams are fielding squads of eleven players that can play effectively both attacking and defending. It is tough to field a line up with a one-dimensional player because it requires so much more from your other field players. So, we will have to see how it plays out.
Welcome to the boards, but I have to disagree. Valderamma still has his magic and he hasn't had better personnel around him the last few years than Etch has.
If he does play, I hope he has a remarkable year and proves me wrong (which I will admit that I am quite often). Then I hope he decides to change the direction of his career away from player to coach. If Hristo leaves next year and DC decides to retain Marco as a player/coach and Marco agrees, that's fine with me. I'm really concerned about how his salary effects the club's possibilties in the future. He definitely won't be remembered for the years he struggled. I'm sure that if he announce that this will be his final season, his last home game at RFK will be one massive party. I'd much rather have it be announced before the end of the season than to hear in the off season that he won't be returning. His white shoes should be kept in a hall of fame exhibit next to our trophies (within DCU's soccer-only stadium).
I disagree with your disagreement.. Valderamma most certainly had a better midfield to deal with than Etcheverry.. Mastroeni Henderson Chung Marco had Lazo and Chino.. You do the math.. I'm torn on this issue overall because Marco is and was one of the few players with heart over the past few dismal seasons.. Playing hurt is tough to do and it affects your game.. While admittedly Marco has slowed to a near crawl, he still holds the ball (in a shielding way) better than any player to have ever suited up in MLS and still commands respect around the league and is still quite capable of threading that pinpoint pass to make the difference in a match.. Unfortunately, the players Marco is threading those balls to are stiffs (Albright, Lassiter 02', RDA 00'-01', Moreno 02', Wood, Marino, Curtis - hell, I could go all day) and not capable of finishing the way Moreno of old, Wegerle, Lassiter of old and even Rammel could... A lot of posters are digging his grave already despite seeing him play yet this pre-season.. Obviously the first hand accounts of Jerry and DRN seem pretty damning evidence, but then again, posters like sormun and his twin brother Big Bubba (a newbie round these parts) think Convey sucks and has absolutely no redeeming value whatsoever.. So basically, I'll wait until the meat of the season is done before shoveling dirt on Marco.. Marco can hold his own, it's the decided lack of quality around him that has made him suffer.. As the old saying goes, "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken ************"....
Leading scorer on a team with little to no attack last year. How quickly we forget. Maybe he needs to step down, but how many of us have seen him play this year? I think this debate should go on hold until after the open practice at least.
No one would rather see Convey running the central attacking midfield than me. I think he's ready and deserves the opportunity. Late last season when he was played there DC United went from a stagnant team challenging for fewest goals in MLS history, to a good offensive team. But, Etch is a quality player and still has a lot to offer. He's nowhere near his ability of 3-5 years ago though. His precision touch is not sporadic, his vision is average, and the increased speed of play in MLS has taken away much of his dominance. But he's still unquestionably one of the best ball-holders in MLS. He still has above-average vision. He still can see and make the final pass. IMHO, he's still better than most people are giving him credit for. He undoubtably does have some weaknesses though. The team needs to have players with more range and strong defensive abilities around him, because Etch doesn't/cannot play any. Etch holds the ball too long and prevents quick attacks, so he needs to be coached into making quick decisions rather than holding the ball and looking for the killer pass. Etch doesn't have the speed to take advantage of defensive gaps by running off the ball into space--like Preki could do--so he's a liability in Hudson's free flowing offense. This means he needs to play a true midfield role and let other midfielders flow up into the forward line. As much as I'd love to see Convey run this team, we have no competent left sided midfielders. The Mapp for Dema trade was a staple-gun pinning Convey to the left winger position for the entire season. While Convey may be given license to drift into the middle and flow through to the forward line, it is unlikely that he'll be allowed to play the role he was so effective in late last season. Coincidentally, it's the same role (central attacking midfielder) Convey is playing for the U-20's, the same role he played for the U-18's, the role he's playing for the U-23's, and one of the roles he was looked at for the full national team. Hopefully, Hudson will take notice of how effective Convey is in these situations both with United last season, and with the various US teams. For the future, Dema just isn't the answer. He was woefully inadequate in Chicago playing that role when Nowak was injured, and he's not significantly improved from that point. Convey is at least as good (and I believe much better) at a substatnially younger age with more upside. The only problem is that we no longer have a young left winger. For those of you calling Dema a Dmid, please stop. Nothing in his history suggests he's at all capable of playing that position. Yes he does play some defense, yes he can win some balls, but he'd be the worst starting Dmid in the league if that was where Hudson played him. Ray is using him as a central midfielder, or even an Hmid, but he's primarily an attacking player who is willing to give some defending. Nothing more. Etch should try to adjust his game to fit the play of the talent around him--Stewart, Convey, Olsen, Dema, Santino and Esky--to help better the team. If he doesn't do that, he'll not be offered a contract next season. He should realize this. Hopefully he does, and he does the necessary and helps pull this team together rather than ball-hogging and playing the patient build-up game. -Tron
No Way! Etcheverry on the bench? No way...he has so entertained those of us that follow D.C. United that I would honestly believe that the real fans, us, will not permit such a thing to happen. Watching sports legends is hoping that sports legends never pass; they will eventually, but in this case, I believe that this player should not be put out to pasture quite yet; too much value, too much experience, too much history, all tied up in an unassuming soccer player, to warm a bench! Not Yet! Inthenet
Man, I was going to start this thread, but I've been beat to the punch. WHY did we re-sign Etcheverry? Does he REALLY sell tickets?... I cannot endure another season of being non-competitive. Are we destined to become the Chicago Cubs of MLS? Perhaps we are three and done. After 100 years of MLS, DCU could still have only 3 Championships... at this pace. Please let this pre-season be an aberration.
I'm gonna tackle all three paragraphs I quoted one at a time.. First, on Etch holding the ball too long and killing attacks.. Yes, he does do this on occasion but as one poster pointed out earlier, you simply can't just turn and send the ball upfield every time you get the ball.. Players like Marco have a God given gift of feel for the game and letting plays develop.. While it may piss off most fans here that Marco does hold the ball too long, it's better than huffing it up the field Route 1 style.. If you're a fan of that crap, I suggest you log onto the Scunthorpe United website and become one of their fans.. My point being is that most of the time, the opportunity to counter simply isn't there due to whatever reason (lack of numbers, defenders closing down on you).. This is akin to grabbing a rebound and running upcourt only to realize you are going 1 on 3.. The odds are against you in that and in many cases in soccer.. It's not as cut and dried as simply playing the ball upfield... As for the Kovalenko at d-mid issue, Malcolm, I couldn't have said it better myself.. He is by no means a defensive midfielder.. And lastly, Etcheverry is a very intelligent player and will adjust to what is tatamount to a ridiculous upgrade in talent surrounding him now (offensively) compared to what he has had to deal with the past few seasons.. It may take some time for this to pan out.. Patience is what is needed at this time.. This team will struggle out of the gate and a lot of fans will blindly call for change.. Some of that criticism may very well be valid, but for the most part, Hudson knows what he is dealing with and will see this through, with Marco or without, but I'm willing to bet he is going to take Marco along with the ride..
Come on now, I wasn't advocating route 1 soccer. If anyone thought that I'm sorry I didn't word it more clearly. There's a difference between fast combination play and route 1 style. (For those who aren't sure, "route 1" is simply having the keeper punt it far and try to start a counter attack. It's also called putting the ball "over the top.") Convey, Stewart, Olsen and Hristo all play quick combination and one touch passing soccer. They should all combine well. Etch and Dema prefer to hold the ball and tool around town with it until they find an opening. In Etch's case he's capable of making the killer final pass and truly pulling the strings. Dema is more likely to dribble laterally accross the defense and take a shot. All three styles are legitimate and all of the players are skilled. But what I'm saying is that having several players of one style might compliment one another, while the ball holding style doesn't compliment that. If you want to make comparisons to English soccer, here's two. One touch, fast combination attacking soccer = Arsenal and Man U. Holding the ball and waiting for the perfect opportunity = Sunderland. It's far too easy to criticize styles. All I'm saying is that the team needs to be built around a complimentary philosophy. I think Etch's and Dema's games would best help DC United if they played the ball more quickly most of the time. That's a lot different than route 1 soccer. -Tron
I think you'll likely see Marco and Dema both pass the ball much quicker once the team works out it's kinks. One thing that is kind of glossed over last year is that once Convey moved into the center WITH Marco (and Bennie returned too) the team started clicking a lot faster up the field. To think that is lost on Hudson is not likely. To think that Marco won't be absolutely giddy at having decent quick pass options all around him is ridiculous too. I do not believe Marco will be a hindrance on this team this season. If I had to predict a problem, I doubt it'll be in the MF. It'll be if Quaranta, Stewart, and/or Hristo and Alecko can't finish often enough to win games.
The man is finished, over, heading to the EXIT sign. Not only he cannot run anymore but, he is a "possesion" liability. Marking him, having a player on his back has been proven a good strategy for the MLS teams to get easy " turnovers" against us. Even the teams with "zone defending" were succesfull in getting turnovers from Ech. The level of his playing, for the last three seasons was a SHAME !!! Last season Ech's goals have a lot in common with " chance" and little with skills. Nothing to write home about !! The league forced him on Ray's throat !! It was a plain SHAME what the league did to Ray, as far as I am concern. IMHO, it is just a better solution to have him home with the money than having him on the field and in the locker room. I bet, it won't be long until he will sit on the bench at the begining of the games........
If we benched Marco, I think Stewart could do well up at attacking mid and pair Esky and Tino up top.
I have been very down on Marco at times but until now I have never seen them play better with him not on the field. Until they do, then he keeps his place.
Marco can stay as long as he doesn’t continue setting up the type of offense we have seen the past few years. As I’m sure everyone on this board is aware, that offense I’m talking about is: walk the ball down, let the defense set up, pass the ball over to the flanks, and then send in a soft usually misguided cross that is easily picked off by the defense which then starts a fast counter because of a huge hole in the midfield that is Marco playing defense. Our offense picked up last year at the end of the season because of Benny. The plays I enjoyed last year were either Benny or Bobby flying in from the wings, taking players on the dribble, and firing a shot. The problem was they had to fire a shot as nobody moved with them. Marco was usually caught flat footed, and Jaime couldn’t care less and stood and watched. Sometimes last year I felt our offense was send Curtis running into the box and hope he gets tripped and have a penalty called, which Jaime would then miss. (Sorry – that game against Columbus in which Prethus stopped Jaime poor effort on the PK still sticks in my craw) Ramblings from The Far Side
I like both of these quotes. To me they point to an important point about Etch and any player really: one must make a distinction between a player's skills and a player's ability to play the game. Usually the difference between the two is negligible but as a player ages then we can see this separation appear. This is true in any sport, but about Etch let's first look at his skills he has used: - he has a great (accurate) left foot - he has superior vision of the field - he can hold the ball - he can create space for himself and others - he has a tremendous competitive instinct One could give him other attributes but I'll leave it at these five for now. These five skills are what took MLS by storm in 96 and continued to do so through 99. But since then he has lost effectiveness. In part this is because of his teamates and in part this is because of injuries but still one can see (think of last year) when even the things that he does best are no longer what they were and the things that he didn't do all that well all along, well, they still are poor (like defense, stamina, or speed). How many times last year did that wonder long diagional ball not quite reach it's target? How many more times was he disposessed last year as compared to year's past? His strengths are no longer all that strong. Now combine thses deteriorating skills (which are still good in and of themselves) with the fact that he no longer presses the attack by dribbling (instead he relies on the long pass more than ever) then his usefulness as an attacking player is disappearing really fast. It is now very easy for opposing defenses to be effective against him. I predict that if he does start most games this year, his stats will be up marginally as compared to last. But that will be because of his new, more effective teamates, not because Etch has found that "old magic" whatever that is. I'll also say that even if his stats improve he will still be a drag on the team as compared to putting out another player. Playing Devin Barclay or even Chino Alegria on the wing would be an improvement for the team overall becasue even though they don't and never will have the individual skills that Etch still possesses, their overall games, being much more well-rounded, make them more effective players. I think that eventually, sometime this season, Ray Hudson will see this.
An attacking midfielder (who was supposed to be the creative force and an offensive maestro) on a team with no offense. How well we remember how little he did.
He scored most of his goals off of free kicks, IIRC. Bet Hristo will cut into that total this year. If Etch starts and plays a signifigant number of games for you again this year, I predict your offense will, again, be terrible. But I also agree that it's a little late to decide to sit him. You've made your choice. You offerred Marco the big $$ and traded Eddie Pope. It makes no sense to sign him for big $$$ and then sit him.
Given Marco's recent history, injuries are going to force Hudson's hand to replace him at some point. If the team does well w/o him over a couple game span, you might not see Marco get his job back right away. But at max salary, he is an Opening Day starter, and barring injury or red card, he's starting for a long time. Hopefully Convey can run more of the show even if Marco is out there, but only time will tell how all the pieces fit together.
Re: Re: Etcheverry for the bench- part 2 I disagree. DC has a legitamate chance of winning it all this year. Last year was for rebuilding. Last year was the time to do something about it. El Diablo will do quite well this year, especially with some talent around him to keep the defense from focusing on stopping him.
Etch? People people how many years have we been saying that we need to replace El Diablo. We brought some players that were "going" to take over his job. (Olsen, Convey, Alegria) Well one got hurt the others is still trying and one of them can't get back in the States! I am sure D.C United will do good this season and El Capitan will lead the way. P.S Oriente Petrolero plays tonight. I hope they do better then los tigres.
A year ago I mentioned this, and most DC fans went off on me for saying Etch needs to chill and be a team player. He definitely is not the same player he used be, and does not bring leadership or even skill to the team. DC would be better off trading him and getting some value in return. Yes, Etch could contribute to the team, but how long must DC wait for him? Another year? No way. Bring on the youth - Convey
If he had better forwards to pass to last year, and better midfield combinations to work with (for the majority of the year), opposing teams wouldn't have been able to mark him as effectively and his totals would have increased due simply to the fact that the forwards he was passing to were scoring.