Eski Situation - NYT Article

Discussion in 'D.C. United' started by nick, Aug 28, 2005.

  1. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Re: Eski may be out permanently



    I'm sorry, but I am just tired of hearing about this. Obviously nobody is happy about Esky being hurt, but please tell me what Reis was supposed to do. Not go for a 50-50 ball? And the quote from this article is just plain bizarre. I posted the links for 3 supposedly dirty attacks by Reis, as were posted in a thread on the Revs board. Please watch the replay of the Esky collision. The ball just misses Reis's hands, and hits his foot, just as Esky's getting to the ball, the definition of a 50-50 ball. Honestly, how should a keeper handle that situation differently? Not go for the ball, and just let the forward get it? Not jump in the air to try to get to the ball first, and have more of a football type collision where both players run straight into one another? (in which case Esky also would have gotten wrecked, as he's not exactly large) Or some how try to jump in the air with his knees bent behind his body? Ever see clips of Jordan doing his famous dunk? His knee is also out front, because that's how your legs work.

    As for the Rolfe collision, watch that too, in slomo. Rolfe stretches his leg out and gets the ball just before Reis does, trying to pop the ball over the keeper, so Reis jumps in the air trying to block the ball, and isn't even headed for Rolfe's body, but more going across it. Rolfe's leg actually catches Reis's ankle, which is tucking up underneath the keeper, Rolfe's arms are both on his right colliding with Reis's mid section, and Reis's butt brushes across Rolfe's right side. Why is Reis turned like that? If you stop the replay as they collide, you see Reis's head focused on the ball.

    Both of these collisions are scary, because they occur on 50-50 balls, where the forward and the GK are running straight at one another, no matter who is involved. I ask, seriously, what should he have done differently? Would you coach your keepers not to go for 50-50 balls, but to only go for balls when your 100% sure you'll get there well before your opponent? I coach keepers, and I always tell them, if you're going for a ball, you have to go in hard to protect yourself, otherwise the opposing forward will run right through you, and only apologize after they score, just as a courtesy, if they say sorry at all. Not to mention the minor fact that if you don't run your hardest to the ball, you won't get to the ball as quickly, giving the forward more of a chance to get to it first. In both clips, you just see Reis compacting his body, to pritect himself, not leading with his elbows, or swinging his arms away from his body to try and hurt anyone.

    As for the 3rd clip, it's Reis's red against the Rapids. Clear red card, for a professional foul. Was it vicious? He knew Fabrice Noel was going to by him and score, so like all professional keepers in that situation, he knocked the player over while trying to make it look like he was going for the ball. Was the Noel hurt? Well, he rolled around a bit clutching his chest, as forwards do in such situations, but as soon as Reis gets sent off, another player walks over, says something to him, and starts to pick Noel up, who didn't seem any worse for wear. And notice, no Rapids players ran up to get in Reis's face after the play, as usually happens when they feel a teammate has been attacked. There are 2 rapids in the frame, one calmly walks right by Reis, apparently asking for the ball to be given to him from out of the frame, and the other runs over to the ref, asking for a red for a professional foul, and seeing that he's going to get what he asked for, just turns and walks away. There's no jawing between any players whatsoever, no apparent anger, as the Rapids knew that their keeper would have done the same thing, that it's how the game is played at that level.

    Please watch them, and tell us if you really think I'm totally distorting things. As has been said, it's a contact sport, and sometimes unfortunate things happen, when players are trying to win games and championships.

    http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/sights/in...b=mls&week=0619 (5:30 into the highlight)
    http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/sights/in...b=mls&week=0710 :)45 seconds into the highlight)
    http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/sights/in...b=mls&week=0821 (5:15 into the highlight)
     
  2. URwormfood

    URwormfood Member

    Mar 24, 2004
    6 feet under: LOT 8
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    You are totally distorting things!

    ~worm~
     
  3. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    I'd watched it before about 15 times. I've now watched it a couple more times. What was Reis supposed to do? How about making a play on the ball, or not initiating the challenge if he was unable to do so?


    He arrived late, as evidenced by the fact that he couldn't even make a play on the ball, couldn't even get to the ball with his hands. On tackles upfield where someone arrives too late to make a play on the ball, and nails a player instead, they justifiably get a card (as happened, oh, at Gillette Stadium this past weekend, and rightfully so).


    I'm glad you at least acknowledge the red was justified; but out of curiosity, do you really believe that he came even remotely close to "making it look like he was going for the ball." I can't imagine that play fooling anyone at all, ever.

    Your links, by the way, don't work; a section of the middle of each URL is missing. But don't worry; I've seen what I needed to see.
     
  4. Darth Norteño

    Darth Norteño With Buddha In My Fists

    The Arsenal
    Wales
    Dec 9, 2003
    laceyforest.arl.va
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Wales
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    I've got a song sheet and a 24-pack of Target-brand toilet paper waiting on him.
     
  5. dcuinvermont

    dcuinvermont Member

    Sep 8, 2000
    Burlington VT
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    Seems like there should have been some sort of update on the situation from Goff or from the DC office on Esky by now. I fear that the lack of any news isn't good news in this case. Hope it's just the usually unprofessionalism, but I don't have my hopes up.
     
  6. Sundevil9

    Sundevil9 Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    Reston, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    I dunno, in the last week or so Goff was the first to mention that he was going up to see the specialist up in Pittsburgh. Those results tend to take a little while. If there's no change in the story, there's nothing to report. But you can ask Goff in his chat on Wednesday.
     
  7. dcuinvermont

    dcuinvermont Member

    Sep 8, 2000
    Burlington VT
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    Depends on the tests done. Most tests of current cognitive function are available within a day or two. He might have had a PET or MRI, or a more comprehensive battery which would take longer to evaluate. If it's taking longer then it also likely means that the signs have been less positive so far.

    Gracias on the chat reminder. It's nice that he's doing those so frequently now.
     
  8. DCFAN96

    DCFAN96 Member

    Apr 24, 2004
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    Wow I'd never think anyone would ever defend Reis last red. How can that not be considered vicious, he threw two fist straight to the guys neck. If thats what you call playing the ball or a professional foul (I laughed at this one) then I guess were playing rugby now. I mean you can't be serious he didn't even try to play the ball he went straight to punching the guy. Wow I still can't beleive you tried to defend that one.
     
  9. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    Reis's problem is that he leaves his feet recklessly in 50-50 challenges when it is not even necessary. On the play with Esky, he never even had to jump to get the ball. The fact that he jumped (like a long jumper with BOTH knees extended) actually made it harder for him to play the ball. He could have run out there and snagged the ball out of the air like Nick Rimando does, without ever leaving his feet.

    Same thing with Rolfe. Reis immediately jumps AT the opposing player, not UP towards the ball. In the Rolfe case, Rolfe was in the process of controlling the ball and Reis totally misses it. In the field, if a field player goes for the ball, whiffs and misses and then clears out a player - it is not a "play-on" 50-50. It is a foul for charging. There is no rule that gives goalkeepers license to charge if they do not win the ball.

    On the Fabrice play, Reis was making a cynical challenge and he was more physical than he needed to be. I watch soccer matches from all over the world, and I rarely see collisions like the ones that Reis routinely gets into. Especially plays in which the goalkeeper ends up hardly playing the ball, unless the forward is the one continuing the play.

    I think that it is a farce that a goalkeeper gives up an almost automatic penalty if he goes to ground and nicks/trips an attacker running through the box (sometimes even when he touches the ball or barely makes much contact), but another keeper is given license (no foul) if he comes through the air and cuts a guy down who was doing nothing more than legally attempting to play the ball.

    I know this is a very hard foul to call (based on ref positioning). But USSF/MLS would have been wise to issue some referee instructions regarding the style of challenges that Reis is making more or less routine, if not using video replay to fine/suspend him for making a reckless challenge.

    Remember, you can be guilty of a reckless challenge even if you do end up playing the ball. Reis's play with Esky (with the uncalled foul committed by Heaps at the same time as the only possible mitigating factor) was a textbook example of "reckless".
     
  10. thecheat48

    thecheat48 New Member

    Jun 16, 2005
    Washington, DC
    NY Times article mentions Reis/Eski incident

    At the bottom of the 8/30 on Klein in the NY Times:

    "NEW ENGLAND Matt Reis's streak of 43 starts in goal for the Revolution ended Saturday, a result of a red card he received for taking down Fabrice Noel in the penalty area in a game Aug. 17 at Colorado.

    It was not the first time this season that Reis had been physical, but it was the first time he had been sanctioned. On June 18, Reis hit D.C. United's Alecko Eskandarian in the head when they collided on the edge of the penalty area. Eskandarian sustained the third concussion of his M.L.S. career and has not played since. Reis was involved in another collision July 9, this time with the Chicago rookie Chris Rolfe. Both times, Reis appeared to ignore the ball and play the man. He did not receive a yellow card in either game.

    In an e-mail message, Eskandarian said Reis's punishment was long overdue. "I am glad he finally got penalized for being so reckless, but at the same time, he is out for one game while I have been out for over 10 weeks, so by no means do I feel as though justice has been done," he said. "I feel very strongly about this. I know soccer is a physical game and things happen on the field."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/sports/soccer/30soccer.html#
     
  11. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: NY Times article mentions Reis/Eski incident

    Link broken.
     
  12. thecheat48

    thecheat48 New Member

    Jun 16, 2005
    Washington, DC
    Re: NY Times article mentions Reis/Eski incident

    Fixed, I think.

    And pardon if this shoulda gone in one of the many Eski threads. I just felt it warranted its own.

    The Cheat
     
  13. Rev-eler

    Rev-eler Member

    Feb 13, 2000
    San Francisco
    Re: NY Times article mentions Reis/Eski incident

    look, i'm not trying to troll....but did alecko produce any kind of statement to the opposite when his reckless foul on francisco gomez (29 mins into the season) knocked him out for 8 games?

    i've watched the video and they're both going for the ball. as far as i can tell...reis jumped to protect himself and give himself a chance at the ball. what kind of chance did a.e. have with the ball coming from up and behind (if i'm not mistaken). your own announcers (including harkes i think) watched this over and over and claimed 'no intent'. heaps pushed him a bit....but, that's pretty common, no?....for anyball that comes into the box to allow the keeper to get it. no question it's a bad situation for everyone. and clearly any player is going to be bitter that they're off the field. if this is 2 field players and they both decide to play a game of chicken....is either at fault? i'd love an explanation of exactly how reis is supposed to react that would've appeased the people here? if it was rimando in the same situation? you say nick don't go for the ball?

    plus, this is his 3rd concussion, no? they don't really get any better after the first. i don't remember the other 2. but, i'm not sure how one tells how much damage this collision really did. even a 'minor' collision for concussion #2 or #3 can have a huge effect.

    again, alecko had a reckless foul that sent someone off for 8 games...did he feel that justice had been done to him by just getting a yellow. think gomez felt the same way while he was out and a.e. was still playing?
     
  14. spidergoose

    spidergoose Member

    Nov 2, 2004
    Annapolis
    Club:
    DC United
    Re: NY Times article mentions Reis/Eski incident

    There's a difference between a reckless foul and an intentional hit. Eskandarian's on Gomez was reckless. Reis's on Eskandarian was intentional. No question.
     
  15. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: NY Times article mentions Reis/Eski incident

    Dunno. What people here have been focussing on, however, is not Reis' recklessness in that foul, but his persistent recklessness. IOW, the belief that his reckless foul of Eskandarian wasn't an isolated incident; hence the interest in the NYT snippet.

    This argument has been deconstructed ad infinitum a kajillion times in this forum -- in fact, several times just today in another thread. If you care enough why people don't buy this argument, see there for another Revs fan making the argument, and a couple of responses further down the page. No point in repeating it yet again here.

    I dunno how he felt. Do you feel that Eskandarian has had a history of reckless/dangerous play?
     
  16. dna77054

    dna77054 Member+

    Jun 28, 2003
    houston
    Re: NY Times article mentions Reis/Eski incident

    Thank God Reis did not try any of that crap against Madrid. Imagine giving Ronaldo a concussion.
     
  17. spidergoose

    spidergoose Member

    Nov 2, 2004
    Annapolis
    Club:
    DC United
    Re: NY Times article mentions Reis/Eski incident

    What are you talking about dna? That would've been awesome. IMO that was his only chance for redemption and he blew it.

    But then I was hoping we'd field a team including Reis, Z. Thompson, Kovalenko, Valakari, Heaps, S. Joseph and bring back Stoichov just for old times sake.
     
  18. Sean...

    Sean... Member

    Jul 23, 2005
    Ireland
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: NY Times article mentions Reis/Eski incident

    I seen this thread on the MLS:teams thread. I missed the incident when it happened so I decided to check it out on MLSnet. I was horrified. There was absolutely no excuse for what Reis did. He did not have to come out with the knee up. Thuggery comes to mind. I really felt for Alecko when I seen him being helped off, he looked naturally like he had no idea where he was. If he never makes it back to soccer, the least I can hope for is that he makes a satisfactory recovery and can lead a normal life. Matt Reis on the other hand can rot for all I care, I hope Dema goes in for a challenge with him and takes him out.
     
  19. vivzig

    vivzig New Member

    Oct 4, 2004
    The OC
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    I was just perusing this thread, you know... it's a game, people get hurt, yada yada, Matt Reis is just aggressive, whatever. I've been grudgingly impressed by Reis' keeping abilities.

    Then I watched those videos.

    Matt Reis is a fvcking thug. 3 times he played the man, not the ball, and he played them by kicking their ass. Victims' eyes are always on the ball, trying to get to it--Matt's eyes are consistently on the man.

    He should be fined and re-suspended and if it happens again, he needs to be thrown out of the league.

    And he owes those guys apologies, especially Eski and Rolfe.
     
  20. vivzig

    vivzig New Member

    Oct 4, 2004
    The OC
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    I would also like to argue with this statement. It is not true.
     
  21. Rev-eler

    Rev-eler Member

    Feb 13, 2000
    San Francisco
    Re: NY Times article mentions Reis/Eski incident

    i have no clue.....but, i don't think reis has either. the play against colorado was just dumb. i'm not sure of the 3rd play people keep talking about. but, i don't remember people EVER talking about matt this way during his career until the past 2 mo's. look, i'm not trying to defend or attack anyone....and it's certainly not based on jersey color.

    i read the thread you're referencing...i see 2 people? trying to disect it from dc. i see a couple others just throwing 'troll' around. i don't have access to the vids right now....but, i have no prob looking again tomorrow. liverpoolsc says he basically 'long jumped' a.e. with legs out. sorry, i don't remember it that way at all. he clearly wasn't diving head first....but, i think his legs are right under his chest/waist. for all i know, he could've been thinking a.e. would go under him with little/no contact. i have no clue. again, not trying to defend....but, i have to see anyone say what he was supposed to do. i see 'play the ball'. someone please draw me a digram of what position that means.

    ok, now you bring up history....on 6/18 there was no 'history' that i can see. if people are going to bring up incidents that happened in july and august....that's after. i think it's hard to retroactively apply the perceived intent of those two things back to the june game. did alecko's perspective change from that incident after seeing these other 2? i have no clue.

    look, i don't want to see anyone go down permanently. especially someone that might be able to help the u.s. down the road at some pt. and regardless of whether or not alecko has a 'history' of reckless fouls...the fact remains, in that article he basically says stuff happens on the field and justice hasn't been served for reis' actions. francisco gomez could've very well felt the same way. i don't even think gomez could see him coming on that foul. does gomez care if a.e. has a 'history' or not while he's sitting out for 8 games and not knowing if his knee is going to hold up once he returns? probably not. all i'm saying is that a.e. can't play both side of the coin. if one feels the punishment doesn't fit the 'specific crime' and the result, then i think/hope he feels accountable for what he did to someone else. i have no clue....but, i'm guessing he didn't put as much thought/energy into gomez' situation as a result of 'his actions' during fg's downtime as he wants others to do now as a result of reis'.

    look at taylor.....this guys gets injured all the time b/c he puts himself in really dangerous situations....he wants to play hard. look he got his face kicked and broken in l.a. going all out for a ball in a congested defensive end. alecko is no different. i'm not saying this was a.e's fault. but, wouldn't we all agree this ball belonged to nobody when it came in?

    anyway, i hope he gets better.
    and i hope 'some' of the fans on this board stop the silly revenge talk.
     
  22. aueagle1

    aueagle1 New Member

    Aug 4, 2005
    Washington DC
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    I was at the DC v. Revs game and I never really saw what happened. I just watched it now, and I could not even watch the replays. That goes up there as one of the worse fouls that I have ever witnessed. After seeing it I am not surprised with the severity of Eski's injury. I am a little surprised that it wasn't worse.
     
  23. revelation

    revelation Member+

    Dec 17, 1998
    FC St. Pauli
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    Merged threads simply because having to write the same arguements over and over again about the same fouls is redundant and annoying. Bad enough that Eskandarian has not recovered, we don't need it to be worse by having every Rev's fan and their brother come in and have to reiterate the arguements against Reis to them over and over...
     
  24. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. Although I still defy anyone who tries to claim that the ball didn't just miss his hands and hit Reis's foot before/as he collided with Esky. If you don't like how he jumped or whatever, fine, I just have a different opinion, but I can't see how you say he got there late. As I said, the first 2 plays mentioned are head on 50-50 balls that he has to try to get to. I guess unlike the some of you, Reis isn’t omniscience, so he isn’t able to positively know for sure if he will absolutely positively get to the ball first on a 50-50 play, so sometimes an opponent just beats him to a ball, as with the Rolfe play.

    A few comments though
    My quote was "he knocked the player over while trying to make it look like he was going for the ball", as other pro keepers do when a forward the ball behind them. I never said I thought he succeeded in that attempt, but I do say that everyone, on both teams, knew what was going on, and didn't think that it was all that bad. I just said that in a situation where the keeper knows the ball is behind them, they'll try to trip/knock the forward over while trying to make it look like they were going for the ball. This type of thing usually happens on breakaways, where the forward knocks the ball behind and the keeper grabs/hits the forward's foot or leg or whatever, and though this play was slightly different, the same thing happened. For the person who says that other pro keepers don't try to do this, take off your blinders and watch some games. You can't honestly tell me you've never seen that before

    Oh, and as for claiming that Reis hit Noel in the throat, did you watch the replay? (perhaps not, seeing as I couldn't actually paste the links in properly, doh!) Why was Noel on the ground holding his chest? Do you think he was trying to make the play look not as bad as it was, so that Reis wouldn't get in trouble? And as I asked, how come no Colorado players yelled at Reis at all? This includes the player who walked within a few feet of the keeper, who was just looking for someone to throw him a ball. You can't tell me that when teammates think a player was the victim of a viscous attack, they don't get a little angry, and look to yell at the opponent.

    But as I said, I guess we'll just have to accept that we just have a difference of opinion. And sorry that the links didn't work, my bad. I just copied what was in that other thread without paying attention to it. I was about to paste them in properly, but I just noticed that someone else did.
     
  25. revelation

    revelation Member+

    Dec 17, 1998
    FC St. Pauli
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Re: Eski may be out permanently

    To recap what you just said: Reis went for the ball with his fists upraised. He failed to connect with his hands and the ball hits his foot. Reis collides with Esky.

    How is that not "arriving late"? He attempted to play the ball with his hands and missed and got the player. Is that not the same as a field player making a slide tackle and not getting ball but getting the man? As for the ball "missing" Reis' hands, what a joke. Unless Reis' hands are somehow unable to move, Reis had the ability to adjust his aim on the ball while in flight.

    As for Reis' jump, he left his feet a good three yards before either the player or ball got there. He had absolutly no control once he left his feet, which is the definition of reckless. Reckless as in willfully out of control. Field players that go into the tackle three to five yards out usually get at least yellow cards if not straight reds because they have no control once they leave their feet.

    As for his play on the ball, he actually makes zero contact with the ball in reviewing the replay. Reis makes all contact with Esky (who also makes no contact with the ball). Again, if a field player had made this tackle, he'd at a minimum have a yellow and very likely a red card. Yet, Reis got nothing, which is why people around here are so upset.
     

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