Eric Wynalda's "Howard Beale moment": FSC employees rant against MLS at the NSCAA Convention

and generally speaking for MLS historically, "attendance suffers" in the middle of the summer, too.

Kenn has some delightful (if a bit dated) data and graphs here:
http://www.kenn.com/the_blog/?p=3098
And I don't think that those graphs would change all that much if the monthly 2010 and 2011 data were added.

I tend to agree with this.

and with the "coldest" weather in the middle of a (hypothetical) MLS season that ran from fall-spring (with a large mid-season winter break), those consecutive (if needed) home or road games depending on the market would be separated by that mid-season break. so that it wouldn't truly be all that successive (if we're talking about just the games on the immediate edges of the proposed mid-season break).

and with the warmer/better weather being found at the start & end of a proposed fall-spring schedule, any/most extend Home (or Away) stretches would not have to be at the start or end of the season -- but rather those 2-3 or so games in a row on the road (or at home) could be in the middle of the season (where they may be a bit "less harmful/welcome" and/or "are more typical" in any season schedule for that matter).

there certainly are scheduling challenges to any proposed changes that MLS might (or might not) be considering for their schedule. similar to how there are scheduling challenges that MLS faces when it plays ("straight through") from March 10 - Dec 1.

 

Let's back up a second and take a look at the international calendar:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/wor...-2014-updateMay2011-EN_11-01240_101_EN_EN.pdf

Can MLS meet that? Sure. Take a summer break and push a few games into colder weather.

Here ends the "international calendar" discussion.

 

If the mid-season break is longer than the offseason, then what's the point?

If they're the same length, why doesn't anyone consider a traditional "American" Apetura/Clausura system?

 

-- establish a summer primary transfer window. have more new players/stars join at the start of each season and not come in mid-season when it might be "too late" to help their team -- this assumes that we recognize that MLS regularly gets players to join the league on free transfers, and most player contracts elsewhere end at the conclusion of other leagues' seasons. (there are also the effects on outgoing players, and how "player sales" and revenues might benefit from MLS having a summer primary transfer window -- and how such sales would be done at the off-season and not in the middle of a competition. if MLS wants to grow their business, it may indeed be more able to do so by having a primary transfer window aligned with those of a good number of leagues with which it does do or wants to do business.)

-- align with the CCL season, so MLS teams don't have to wait 6 extra months before they start international competition once they have qualified.

-- conduct the post-season playoffs, the time of the year when MLS really does (or wants to) have more attention on itself, in nicer weather and limit the concerns with how the "tbd" host venue/city will be able to put on on good MLS Cup (and not have to worry about late-Nov or early-Dec weather for the championship deciding games).

and there are probably some other decent "points." (and no, not all of these "points" are immediate for vital needs for the league, but down the road as the business matures, these types of considerations may become more important to MLS.)

I'm sure some people (perhaps even those decision-makers at MLS) are considering such a system. (but it wasn't mentioned in Wynalda's rant, and that, sadly, is what started this thread.)

 

that's right, and the league already did take a 2-week summer break in 2010 (for the World Cup group stage) -- and that type of decision could rather easily (it would seem) be repeated (and expanded) in future seasons.

and if "a few games" are being pushed into colder weather, does it make better sense for the business of MLS to play those game a) at the start and end of each season, or b) in the middle of the season?

again, that's a fair question, and one I do not know the answer to.

but I would imagine that the MLS Competition Committee and others might be (or eventually might be) analyzing that type of question and possible answers.

sure, the discussion could end there.

or, down the road, would/could it eventually make more business sense for MLS to try to do what the Russian league is doing (and run one extra-long season that will allow them to then establish a fall-spring season)?

I don't know, but I don't think the discussion of "avoiding the Fifa international match dates" needs to end or be completely tied to the "spring-fall or fall-spring" analysis.

there are reasons for MLS to play spring to fall.

and there might (eventually) be compelling enough reasons for MLS to play fall to spring.

(but, regardless of those "season-start-date" discussions/decisions, I can't think of many compelling reasons for MLS to play on Fifa international match dates, or too many of them.)

 

In what American sport has any league ever taken a two-month break? You have to remember that not all American soccer fans are familiar with what's done in European soccer. Many may not realize that countries like Russia and Germany even take a winter break. You think Joe American Soccerfan is going to get his head around a winter break? Come on.

My brother loves watching EPL and he always comes to Union games with me. He doesn't follow the Bundesliga. He doesn't know that they take a winter break. How would he? The only thing he knows is that EPL is in winter, and MLS is in summer. He would be labeled your average American soccer fan. He likes the fact that he has something to watch in the winter, and he likes the fact that he can tailgate and go to games when the weather's a lot nicer. If you change the schedule, you're not making things easier on him. You're making them more difficult and confusing. And for what? To satisfy some miniscule loud minority? Doesn't add it up, and it never will. The day that things will change is when the current season ticket, game plan, and suite holders (ESPECIALLY the suite holders) want a change. When the league office and front offices are inundated with demands from a majority of those people, that's when things will change. Until it hits the pocketbook, changes aren't made, especially with MLS.

 

That's exactly what I thought when I read Wynalda's characterization of "direct," which is apparently defined as, "with the authority of force rather than logic."

 

If MLS sent out a survey and said, "Would you want to see Apertura/Clausura in MLS for the upcoming season," which answer would get the most responses?

A. Yes
B. No
C. What's an apertura/clausura?

 

Well if you use to correct version of winter (winter solstice to spring equinox) The two last weeks in February and the three first weeks in March.

Realistically, I think it would be possible to play the last two games (early December) and the first two games (late February) at "warmer" weather locations. That would give us a 38 week season (if we started the weekend after the transfer window opened, and ended in May).

That's certainly an option.

While the long winter break "looks funny," I don't see how that matters. For one of those months, teams will presumably be in training camp and participating in friendlies.

What's the point? To align US contracts with the major European leagues (end in May), allow the signing of free agents from teams in Mexico/Europe at the Beginning of the season rather than half way through, and to make MLS teams more competitive in the CONCACAF CL by shortening the winter down time. I think it also makes sense to have the playoffs when you're not competing with the NFL and MLB.

 

yes. (if that's the season schedule that MLS were to ever present to them. Joe American Soccerfan can use the break to celebrate the winter holidays, stay warm inside, and watch the NFL playoffs, which they would likely be doing anyway -- so a mid-season break by MLS at that time wouldn't be a huge mental hurdle to overcome or deal with.)

 

a spring end to the MLS season, would still require the MLS late-season period and playoffs to compete with MLB (but it would be the early weeks of the MLB season, and not the late-season and post-season period of MLB.)

 

Explain how an American soccer fan, who is a season ticket holder to an MLS team, and doesn't really care about what happens in Europe because they really only like going to MLS games, is going to understand why they changed the schedule from a summer event to fall-spring with a 2 month break in the middle of it for winter.

That is as arrogant a statement as, "MLS fans will like what I tell them to like." Believe it or not, there are MANY season ticket holders and game plan holders and suite holders who like the schedule the way it is, and wouldn't really understand a change that only a small minority of people want. You're changing something incredibly important just to satisfy a small amount of people. You're alienating many to satisfy a few. How in the world is that justifiable? THAT is how you ruin a good thing.

 

Just tell them that this is the way the rest of the world does it. What possible objection could they have?

 

MLS Cup playoffs began on October 26. The last two games of the World Series were played on October 27 and 28. There was only one game of overlap between the two (Colorado/Columbus and Game 6 were on October 26.) There's really not any overlap between the two. The only thing they would be going up against would be the NFL, and they can always not play games on Sundays opposite it. I don't see the problem with the way things are now.

 

if they "really only like going to MLS games" -- why would they stop doing that if MLS decided to make such an alignment change to their schedule?

would moving 5-6 or so league "match dates" -- and therefore realistically only about 2-4 home match dates per market -- (out of June/July for example, and placing them in the first 2 weeks or December and the 3 or so weeks that span the end of Feb and the beginning of March) really have such an overall negative affect on the business of MLS?

I do not know the answer to that. but I would suspect that many here are overstating the benefits of the "status quo" and underestimating the ability of MLS fans (and others, potentially new fans even) to adapt to and accept the new things that MLS might decide are best for their business (even if that means establishing a summer off-season and a mid-season winter break).

it's not "me" or "you" -- these are decision that the MLS BoG eventually will (or won't) make after analysis of what is best for their business going forward.

again, how many would alienated by such a change?

again did anyone read post #28 in this thread in which AndyMead wrote that per Nelson Rodriquez at MLS, "the average paid attendance ({is} much lower than anyone realizes - even in this forum)".

the business of MLS is growing and changing. it apparently less and less dependent on ticket sales (alone) and is gaining revenue from other venues -- sponsorship, media rights, other.

would it "alienate" some people to establish a two-month or so mid-season break? sure. (but we have no idea who that impact would be and how such a move would truly affect MLS's business.)

and it's worth noting that moving to a fall-spring schedule might indeed come with other operational benefits for the overall business of MLS.

no one here is making these decisions. but it will be interesting to watch what MLS (and its Competition Committee and Board of Governors) might be discussing or implementing in the seasons ahead.

 

I agree, with one exception: Saturday playoff games will compete with college football, which seems to always have at least a few televised night games these days. But that's not enough of a reason to completely re-orient the whole league schedule, IMHO.

 

fair enough, and that's why I included "the MLS late-season period and playoffs" in my quote, as opposed to just looking at the current MLS post-season period -- which is slightly shifting later in 2012 anyway.

MLS Cup 2012 on Saturday Dec 1 will be going up against NCAA Football conference championship games, I believe.

fair enough.

and again, this is not only about what you or I or anyone here "sees."

this is about the business of MLS, and the considerations and decisions that MLS faces as it looks to possibly grow/alter/improve their business moving forward.

the league very well could always stick with a spring-fall schedule.

or, they could decide that a fall-spring schedule actually might/will work better for their business in the future.

(and the fans, on the whole, will be strong and capable enough to handle either/every decision the league makes. MLS is likely going to do a very good job of making decisions going forward that are going to allow the league to exist and prosper, and be available to the fans.)

 

This is the rub here. Wynalda says "change and Fox will love you." Well, this league is about more than Fox. How do you handle the shift? What does ESPN think? NBC? Local TV partners? Sponsors? Right now, the back end of the season is heavily impacted by football. Now we want to kick off the season going against them?

It's not that simple and that's yet another of my problems with Wynalda's rant. These are complex issues with many moving parts and deserve serious discussion, not temper tantrums and name calling for anyone who doesn't just accept one person's simple solution.

I think finding something that somewhat resembles that system, but doesn't completely split the season in 2 is the ideal. From May 28 to June 15, there are two MLS games scheduled. Last year, July was really light. There are lots of targets for MLS to deal with. Slowly slide the beginning close to March 1 and MLS Cup to early December and find pockets in the middle to give breaks to allow for international dates.

The solution isn't always copying what someone else does. It's usually finding what works best for you. And with the league still growing and changing, sometimes the best solution for now rests in small changes until the future when things are on more solid ground.

 

tab5g, thank you for the positive rep, and I will return it to you, but I have to spread some around first. Your question was, "How hard would it be for my brother to understand what they do in Bundesliga?" My answer is this: My brother, like many other people, are accustomed to things being done a certain way. He knows that the NFL starts in September and is played in the fall. He knows baseball starts at the beginning of April and is played during the summer. He knows the NHL and NBA begin in October, and are played in the winter. He is accustomed to all of this. When he started going to MLS matches with me, he always said that he liked the fact that MLS was played during the summer because it's nice, you can tailgate, kick the ball around, and have a great time. To him, just as an average fan, he's become accustomed to that. This will be our third year of this annual rite of summer. It's more than just a game for us. It's everything surrounding the game that we love. If things get switched, he, and many other people, will lose that comfortability factor that they've grown accustomed to. He doesn't want to tailgate in the cold. It won't be the same. Now, to some people, this might not be a big deal. However, try to think of the guy who has a suite and has the same feelings as my brother. He likes the warm weather. He likes being outside in the summer. He likes to tailgate without the hassles of freezing his ass off. His opinions matter too. All I'm trying to say is that there are many more people out there who feel like brother do. They've become accustomed to things being a certain way.

Finally, to be completely honest, I love the schedule the way it is because it gives me something to do during the summer. I look forward to every MLS season for the same reason I look forward to baseball season. Not just because I love the sports, but because it signals that better weather is coming, and it's going to give me more time to do the things I enjoy. Sure, I'd still attend Union games if they were played in below freezing temperatures, but that doesn't mean that everyone else wants to. I know my wife surely won't, and she's my backup for when my brother can't go.

We've heard from the loud minority, but we never hear from the silent majority because those are the people that are content with the way things are, and don't want change. I can assure you that if changes were made, the silent majority would be very vocal, and they'd vote with their wallets. MLS doesn't want to risk that.

 

Yeah, when it comes to that time of year, MLS has to go up with football no matter what. If it's not the NFL, it's college. I think they've done a good job with their scheduling (with the exception of cramming things together this past year) of the playoffs. The crowds, for the most part, have been excellent, even if the TV numbers were down. Of course, that's what's important to MLS is the number of asses in the seats, not necessarily the number of asses in front of the TV.

 

understandable.

and Garber has noted that the MLS fan base is not (yet) strong or established enough to have things like "too many" cold weather games to deal with.

but again, this "proposed change to the MLS schedule to establish a summer off-season" would keep about 75% or so of the home schedule the exact same in each market. roughly 3-5 or so home games would need to be moved from the summer to the weeks adjacent to the proposed mid-season winter break (or beyond the current start/end of the season as is).

those ~25% of home date absolutely are important to fans. and summer live soccer is important to folks. but it should also be noted that the Summer months can or would be (in part) still used for exhibition matches (and opportunities to tailgate).

yes, there would certainly be a level of "something lost" if MLS stopped playing many or any league games in parts of June/July (and perhaps early Aug), but again, any possible changes that MLS makes are going to be gradual. people will likely begin to realize that MLS is playing deeper and deeper into March (and Dec even), and doing things like breaking for World Cup windows. This isn't going to be an immediate switch one year out of the blue. (and frankly, the switch may never happen).

but if MLS decides that it makes sense for their overall business, they'll give it a try.

(and if it doesn't work out for their overall business, let's just hypothetically say for the 2021-2022 MLS season, then there's nothing that would stop MLS from returning to being a spring-fall single-calendar-year league in 2023 or 2024. MLS is still relatively young and agile enough -- and off of enough people's radars, that it can try new things, and potentially even make missteps, without necessarily killing or doing significant harm to the overall business.)

of course, I do think that MLS will wait until they're certain enough (if ever) to make such a switch, and I don't think they'd attempt this on some trial basis. (but if the US -- and/or Canada -- does ever host a World Cup again, and I'd imagine we would, it would seem that it might make good sense for MLS to have an extended break, if not an off-season, in that specific summer.)

 

Another thought; teams like Toronto and Montreal could have special "winter classic" type games every year during the cold weather period. Montreal could play Toronto at Olympic Stadium the first game back from the winter break, or Toronto could play NYRB at the Rogers Center before the break.

 

as more and more MLS seasons go by, I'm thinking that statement will be turning itself on its head (or ass, as the case may be).

while "full stadiums" (and the goal of full stadiums) will always be of significant importance for MLS, the real growth of the business will likely have to be found within the media and SUM portion of the operations.

 

Disagree. The issue is not just the schedule. The main issues are TV ratings that are disappointing and the performance of the national team that is also disappointing. If both of these improve a lot then there will be a lot more dollars to share for the league, teams, players, etc. Why do you think EPL players get paid so much; only because of the TV contracts that are just unreal. Filling a stadium is just not that profitable.

Then there is the issue with attendance figures. Some stadiums are often not even half full. Then you have the issue that figures are not real. Take for example the NYRB play-off game; folks have written that the official number was 10,000 while Eric said it was 5,000 I believe Eric since I have been in that stadium when it was 'sold-out' but was only 1/3 to 1/2 full. Maybe those other seats were sold, but to whom and where were they? You would never ever see this in Europe or for football games here... This shows to me there is not enough passion, of which Eric has plenty.

Tell you something else. Last time before heading into the NYRB arena we had couple drinks in a bar in Ironbound where mostly Portugese and S-Americans live. This is a district that produces top-notch soccer teams. Was about a 10 min walk from the arena. So we started talking to folks at the bar who told us they were not even aware that a game was about to take place...; they were passionate soccer lovers, had the stadium at their foot steps but were not following their 'local' MLS team ...; blew me away.

Some will now start to counter and say that Klinsmann things will soon be better. Well, that's all hope and after watching yesterday an American (Robbie Finley) for Nottingham Forrest miss the open goal from 2' out it reconfirmed my doubts. But let's leave this discussion for the US team thread.

Point is, changes are needed and it will take plenty of passion, good logic and communication to make it happen.

 

Apparently having a summer schedule didn't hurt Brazil's bid for the 2014 World Cup either. Just sayin'...

Repped...

...and repped.