English players Dual Nationality thread #2

Are you sure? Martin O'Neill certainly thought he was a number of years ago

 

He's from my city and my mum is good friends with his mum. He definitely isn't Irish qualified, it is just a myth.

 

To be fair, Martin O'Neil would have begged anyone with an Irish sounding name to play for Ireland. Plenty of lads called callum who have no Irish heritage whatsoever.

 

Article from the Athletic about Grealish and Rice:

The press conference was running late. In the next room, a commotion was going on. All the talk was of Jack Grealish and several rows of journalists were starting to wonder what the hold-up was all about.

The date was May 12, 2015, and the news had been broken by Ian Mallon, a football writer with close links to the Football Association of Ireland, in that morning’s Irish Independent.

Grealish was 19, fresh-faced, with none of the stubble that we see now, and so light-footed with a ball at his feet he could have been on paws.

He had been pencilled in to win his first senior call-up to the Republic of Ireland squad for two games at Dublin’s Aviva Stadium. The opposition was England, in a friendly, followed by a European Championship qualifier against Scotland. The print-outs were waiting to be handed out: a provisional 33-man squad with Grealish, of Aston Villa, as the stand-out name.

But there was a problem. As the journalists waited for the official announcement, they became aware that Ireland’s manager, Martin O’Neill, was in the next room and talking to someone on the phone, possibly Grealish himself. Somebody came through to apologise for the delay. Then the news started to filter through that another squad was being printed off. There was no Grealish and the sheets of paper were still warm as they were handed around.

As one former official from the England set-up recalls: “We had to do everything we could to stop Jack playing in those games because that would have meant losing him forever. He was too talented for us to give up on him. Everyone can see now why we had to act.”

Six years on, it can feel like a trick of the imagination that Grealish wore Ireland’s colours from the under-15s right through to their under‑21s. The player acclaimed in a New York Times feature last week as England’s “Golden Boy” has a trophy at home for Ireland Under-21s’ player of the year. Grealish’s acceptance speech noted that “hopefully next year I’ll be back in the green jersey.” Note the “hopefully”.

It turned out to be his farewell speech, too.

The FA had to fight hard to get their man and perhaps these are the moments, with a Euro 2020 semi-final coming up against Denmark, when the relevant people are entitled to feel they did the right thing gazumping their Irish counterparts.

And perhaps the FA could also be excused for congratulating itself again when it comes to the player who, as a boyhood Chelsea supporter, would have appreciated the hug he received from Andriy Shevchenko, Ukraine’s manager, after England’s 4-0 victory in Rome on Saturday.

Declan Rice, like Grealish, was also firmly embedded in the Irish set-up before the FA set about persuading the West Ham player to join Gareth Southgate’s revolution.

The difference is that Rice had already played for Ireland’s senior team, winning three caps, before switching allegiances.

There is footage online of a 19-year-old Rice turning to the fans in Tallaght Stadium, Dublin, after a goal for Ireland’s under-21s and kissing the badge on his shirt. When he made his senior debut against Turkey in March 2018, he talked about having tears in his eyes as the national anthem was played. It was, he said, the proudest moment of his life.

All of which, it is fair to say, was thrown back at Rice six months later when he asked to be left out of a Nations League tie in Wales – not long after England had reached the World Cup semi-finals – because the FA had started fluttering its eyelashes in his direction and he was in two minds about what he should do.

Kevin Kilbane, who played 110 times for Ireland, chose Twitter to make his feelings clear. “I’d rather be ranked 150th in the world and never qualify again than have someone who has played but needs time to think whether they should play for us again.”

Rice’s announcement that he was abandoning Ireland came nine months later, explaining that it had been one of the harder decisions he had ever had to make.

“If you’re a ‘proud Englishman’ then why play for us in the first place?” Kilbane responded.

For the FA, it was always going to be a delicate process but one that English football’s governing body can argue was necessary, vital even, given the impact of the two players at Euro 2020.

Grealish comes from Solihull with English-born parents, Kevin and Karen, and a great-great-grandfather, William Garraty, who won the FA Cup with Aston Villa in 1905 and was capped by England. Kevin was there when Villa won the European Cup in 1982. He drank in the New Aston Social Club, just down the road from Villa Park, and the popular story is of Jack, as a boy, playing football in the car park. The accent? Pure Brummie, mate.

Yet Grealish’s Irish links were not just restricted to the fact he used to play Gaelic football for the Birmingham-based John Mitchel’s Hurling and Camogie Club. One of his grandmothers was from Dublin. One grandfather was from Gort, the other from Kerry.

Grealish was invited to train with England’s under-16s and under-17s on three separate occasions but seldom gave the impression to the coaches that he was entirely comfortable or happy.

“Although born and bred in England, he saw himself with Ireland because of his family’s background,” says John Peacock, then coach of England’s under-17s. “At that time his allegiance was towards the Republic, though we always knew there was an opportunity to change that at some point.”

Rice was raised in Richmond, south-west London, but qualified for Ireland because his grandparents, Margaret and Jack, were from the outskirts of Cork.

In 2017, Rice collected Ireland’s under-17s’ player-of-the-year award in Dublin, dressing for the occasion in an emerald tie.

In two of his three caps, against Turkey and the United States, he was man of the match. In the third, he held his own against a France side that won the World Cup six weeks later. When he was asked about the speculation that he might defect to England he described it as a “load of crap”.

What has never been reported until now is how, behind the scenes, the FA formed its strategy to win this international tug-of-war – Grealish on Roy Hodgson’s watch, Rice on Southgate’s say-so – and the background to a process that went on for several years.

In both cases, it was Dan Ashworth, then the FA’s director of elite development, who set the ball rolling by contacting the players’ representatives. Ashworth, now the technical director at Brighton, was essentially putting out the feelers, without wanting to come on too strong.

“At the top of the FA there was an understanding that they couldn’t be too aggressive, as happens with some other countries,” says one official with knowledge of the talks. “It was about letting the players know they were always on our radar, explaining about the pathway that could be open with England, what happens at St George’s Park and making that initial contact. But it was important, right from the start of the process, not to badger or pester the players.”

Southgate, then England Under-21 manager, spoke to Grealish. Peacock made contact with the Grealish family. His assistant, Kenny Swain, did, too, and maybe that was clever on the FA’s part – Swain was one of Villa’s heroes from the 1982 European Cup final.

“Jack was torn between the Republic and England,” says Peacock, now the academy manager at Guangzhou in China’s Super League. “We had already tried to move Jack away from the Republic and persuade him to come to England when he was younger.

“I touched base with the club, I touched base with Jack, but it was mainly Kenny who had the in-depth discussions with them. Kenny, being an Aston Villa player of repute for many years, was the one.”

Swain managed England’s under-16s and, now working as a consultant for the Premier League in youth development, is regarded as one of the best talent-spotters in the business.

“Our talent ID team at the FA had identified Jack at 15 but he had chosen to go to the Republic because they kept giving him opportunities at older age groups,” he says. “That was always a bit of an obstacle for us, but you have to be patient. It was inevitable they (the FA) would try to get him because he was pulling up trees for Villa.

“I had already given him three opportunities to come to England — not to play for England, but to be involved, come to the development camp and one of the Victory Shields (youth tournaments). On a couple of occasions he went home early. One was an injury, one was because he said he felt ill and the medics thought they should let him go back. At that age you don’t put pressure on players.

“There was a break of a year to 18 months and in that time John went over to Ireland to watch him. He (Grealish) was on our doorstep anyway at Villa, and we’d had him in. I’d invited him to St George’s Park to meet Noel Blake, who was our Under-19s manager, and Dan Ashworth. We were all over it because we knew he had potential. Nevertheless, pinning him down to a commitment was difficult because the Irish were giving him more opportunities.”

The Athletic’s information is that it eventually led to a meeting, arranged on a strictly need-to-know basis, between Grealish and Hodgson on a Friday night at Villa Park early in the 2015-16 season.

Grealish, then 19, had taken a year-long sabbatical from international football to gather his thoughts. An injury meant him watching from the stands as Adnan Januzaj’s first-half goal put Villa on their way to a 1-0 defeat by Manchester United. Then, an hour or so after the final whistle, he was led to an executive box where Hodgson was waiting for him.

When Grealish was invited to a previous meeting with O’Neill he was accompanied by his agent, David Manasseh, as well as his father. Hodgson, though, was adamant that he did not want an agent involved. He preferred to speak to Grealish one-on-one and, as far as he was concerned, it was non-negotiable.

“I’m the England manager,” Hodgson pointed out. “Agents speak to club directors and maybe even club managers but, as England manager, I don’t speak to agents. I’m more than happy to speak to the boy, I’m more than happy to speak to his manager and more than happy to speak to his parents. But I don’t go to meetings where an agent sits there and tells me. Maybe the FA will have to, if the boy insists his agent is there, but I’m not prepared to do that.”

Hodgson’s message to Grealish was that he could not guarantee him a place, the same as he couldn’t with any player, but that England had always kept tabs on him and wanted him to be part of their future.

Grealish listened, took it all in and gave the impression that, yes, he liked what he had heard. First, though, he sought the advice of Tim Sherwood, Villa’s then manager.

“He was under a bit of pressure,” Sherwood says. “My view was that, ultimately, it’s down to the boy, it’s where he feels his heart is. He’d played for Ireland’s under-21s and they’d given him the trophy for young player of the season, which was them trying to force the issue. He was having a good time with Ireland. But I said to Jack, ‘If you were my son, and I believe in you as I do, I’d be telling you to play for England.’

“Maybe it would have been different if Jack was Irish through and through. In the past, certainly in my era, Ireland had a good history of getting to later stages of tournaments and pulling off some shocks. I just felt that if England could get it right, as they have now, they could actually win a tournament. I know people can turn that back on me and say, Hang on, England haven’t done anything since 1966,’ and I understand that.

“I just always felt there would be a time when England could do it. I told Jack that. ‘First and foremost, I think you’re good enough, I think you’re an England international, but it has to be your decision.’ And he said, ‘I think I have made my mind up, it’s going to be England’.”

It hasn’t been straightforward, though.

People close to Grealish recall his involvement with Ireland could create problems when he was breaking through at Villa. Grealish would come up against Irish players from other Premier League sides who would try to get under his skin. Some would call him a “Plastic Paddy.”

When he announced his switch to England he opened himself to more of the same, only worse. More than once, he was told on the pitch what some Irish players thought of his decision. Heat-of-the-moment stuff, perhaps, but not very pleasant, all the same. One incident became so intense that one of Grealish’s senior team-mates had to step in and get involved.

Then there was the added complication that Roy Keane, O’Neill’s assistant, held a similar role at Villa under Paul Lambert, who had replaced Alex McLeish as manager. And Keane was about as subtle as a sledgehammer.

“There was a lot of pressure on Jack at that time because the stories were making headlines,” says one of Grealish’s former Villa team-mates. “He had represented Ireland and felt a degree of responsibility. But he was English and he would say that to us. That’s why I always knew that he would decide to play for England in the end.

“It wasn’t that easy, though, because Roy Keane was our assistant at the time. He was always in Jack’s ear, trying to get him to play for Ireland.”

Don’t assume it was always fun for Rice either, after the long telephone conversation with Southgate that helped to persuade him to align himself to the country where he was raised.

Rice has had to endure a backlash that has involved online threats against him and his family – even if it is also true that many of the people he had come to know in the Irish set-up wished him luck.

He has heard the allegation that maybe he did it for commercial reasons because playing for England, in major tournaments, can attract more sponsors and be more lucrative than playing for Ireland ever would.

Mick McCarthy, who had replaced O’Neill as manager, had talked publicly about Rice being a future Ireland captain and building the entire team around him. McCarthy and his assistant, Robbie Keane, had also been to see Rice, and his father Sean, to tell them something similar. Deep down, however, McCarthy felt it was a lost cause. His suspicion was that he, and Ireland as a whole, was being strung along.

When Rice rang him to break the news, McCarthy unloaded several months of pent-up frustration. “I was very abrupt. There was no, ‘Oh thanks for letting me know, good luck with that and I hope it goes well for you’. It was the opposite of that.”

West Ham were brought into it, too. Did they influence Rice’s decision? “You have to look at the club,” Ray Houghton, the former Ireland international, said pointedly. “Transfer fees are much higher for players playing for England.”

As for the players Rice had left behind, it is probably fair to assume they might have mixed views watching their former team-mate lining up for England in a Euro 2020 semi-final at Wembley.

“He said he was a proud Irishman,” James McClean, the Ireland international, said in one interview. “Then he said he was a proud Englishman. If he’s both, good luck to him, but I don’t buy it. You’re either one or the other. It’s not just Declan, it’s anyone else. If you’re not proud to be here and we’re a stepping stone, then sod off and play for someone else.”

Maybe Rice does not need to worry about that now he stands one game away from helping England reach their first major final since the 1966 World Cup.

“I’d seen Declan from a young age,” Swain says. “I remember thinking, ‘Blimey.’ If I was still at the FA, I’d have included him way before. He was not just a good player, he was a leader. I could see he could play centre-back or midfield but he also had leadership qualities.”

There are plenty of people who also want to make the point on behalf of the two players that nationality is an intensely personal issue. It is possible, they say, for somebody to feel English and Irish and maybe that requires understanding, not condemnation.

Emmet Malone, the Irish Times’ sportswriter, summed it up neatly when he reminded everyone about the old joke that FAI supposedly meant ‘Find Another Irishman’ in the days when Jack Charlton used to take full advantage of the ‘granny rule.’

“Comfortably more than half the squad he (Charlton) took to Italy for the World Cup in 1990 were born in Britain,” Malone wrote. “The notion that every one of them would have played for Ireland if somebody else had asked first seems, well, a little fanciful.”

Houghton, for example, ended up playing for Ireland because Charlton had gone to a match at Oxford United to ask John Aldridge if he would accept a call-up and found out in the process that Houghton’s father was from Donegal. A year after scoring the winner against England in Euro ’88, Houghton admitted he still did not feel “the slightest bit Irish”.

Or how about the famous story of Andy Townsend, who cheered on England against Ireland when the two sides met in 1988 and played against the country of his birth in the World Cup two years later?

“I remember the Townsends, the Cascarinos and all the other English guys in the Ireland team,” Sherwood says. “They were more Cockney than I am.”

As for Kilbane, he grew up on the same street in Preston where Tom Finney, one of the most celebrated names in English football history, spent his childhood. Deepdale, home of Preston North End, was just around the corner and Kilbane’s accent was Lancashire rather than Limerick. That might make him English in many people’s eyes, but Kilbane always considered himself Irish, via his parents, and tells the story in his autobiography about his embarrassment when the FA called him up, out of the blue, for England’s under-18s.

Sam Allardyce, then Preston’s manager, went “the colour of the Anderlecht home kit” and chucked him out of his office when the teenage Kilbane broke the news that he wasn’t interested because had never considered himself English.

Allardyce did apologise, to give him his due, and Kilbane went on to win 110 Irish caps, though not everyone agreed with his assessment of Rice’s volte-face. Richie Sadlier, who won one cap for Ireland, described Kilbane’s remarks as “monumental bollocks”.

All that can be really said for certain is that it hasn’t been an orthodox route for Rice or Grealish and that it is a sensitive subject for the nation that lost out on both players.

Some journalists in Ireland questioned why O’Neill had not foreseen what might happen and included Rice in a World Cup qualifier against Moldova in 2017, a criticism that led to some tetchy exchanges at a future press conference.

O’Neill politely declined to take part in this article. Noel King, formerly the manager of Ireland’s under-21s, made it clear he did not want to speak either. And there was also the reaction to Rice being named Ireland’s young player of the year in 2019, shortly after announcing he was switching to England.

McCarthy was livid and told the journalists who had cast the votes for Rice that they had “made everyone look stupid.” But he did also make a separate confession that went to the heart of the issue: “I felt a bit bitter and twisted, but that was because we had lost a good player.”

The same goes for Grealish – “the closest I’ve ever seen to Paul Gascoigne,” Sherwood says – and maybe it is not a complete coincidence that Keane, in his role as a television pundit, has sometimes seemed reluctant to praise him too much.

Keane, that prolific bearer of grudges, never forgot the time Matt Holland – born in Bury but eligible for Ireland, with 49 caps to show for it, because he had a grandmother from County Monaghan – lined up at Wembley in the colours of Ipswich Town.

“For me, Matty is as English as David Beckham,” Keane wrote in his autobiography. “He played for Ireland and he obviously has the roots. But he played for Ipswich in a play-off final, in 2000, and he was singing God Save the Queen at the top of his voice. I don’t think he could have sung it any louder. Some of the other Irish lads saw him, too, so at the next couple of international matches we were going, ‘Turn that rebel music up a bit’.”

 

I think next time we have any dual nationals flirting with Ireland we just need to show them the comments from the Irishmen in that article.....

Or maybe how easy the likes of Keane seem to resort to slagging off people who commit to Irish for being English when it comes down it it.

 

The bit that shocked me was that when Grealish was still committed to Ireland and breaking through at villa Irish internationals would call him "plastic paddy". For a nation that relies on dual nationals that is beyond dumb.

 

Ireland's greatest ever team which had their best tournament performance was half English and many of those players were only playing for them to play in a tournament. I guess the ultra nationalist types like Keane and McClean would rather not qualify than have those types of players in their squad. There's always a tension for dual-nationals there that won't be there in the England squad and as mentioned before we should make the likes of Joe Hodge etc well aware of that.

 

It may be dumb but its also the truth, no normal Irish person or player ever actually thought Grealish or Rice were Irish. If any player born and raised in England thinks that anyone in Ireland will ever actually consider them to be "real" Irishman they need their head examined.
The faux outrage from Mccarthy, McLean, Keane etc. is just part of the farce, it was a purely transactional arrangement and if they now can't cope with the reality then tough.

 

I totally agree, I just think its stupid these players know good and well they desperately need all the help they can get from the "plastics" and then turn around and insult them.

Intresting I didn't know that. I think its obvious we have so many players in the development squads and only so many can play. Ireland can offer more game time in higher age groups for players. It was just a means to an end and serves them right, I think I would be sick to my stomach if we actually lost such a special footballer to Ireland. I was irritated enough with David Brooks although he hasn't quite cracked on like I thought he would.

 

I just find it unbelievable that Ireland have such a backwards mentality when it comes to dual players. They have benefited from foreign born players more then any other country in the world.
They are also one of the largest expat countries with irish communities everywhere.
You would think, taking all that into consideration, that they may have more of an open mind when it comes to Dual players but it's actually quite the opposite.
I always get the feeling with them that, if someone has an Irish connection somewhere, then they should automatically feel more Irish then anything else and they take it personally if that's not the case.

 

Thanks Barry that was informative. Glad we got u15 team now. That adds a lot of context. I guess it definitely was the right move for him at that time when you look at it like that.

 

I don't think it's feigned, they really believe it, because they come from a generation with Kilbane types who genuinely had no interest in playing for England.

 

I see Michael Olise is going to join Palace apparently which seems like a good move for him. After reading that article on Grealish and Rice, I have some new found faith that the FA are probably working behind the scenes to try and secure Olise for England or at least I’m sure they are trying. I think they are probably a lot more clued up with regard to the Dual players than we probably give them credit for within their talent ID program.

 

Olise to Palace confirmed - supposedly for £8m, which looks an absolute bargain. Not sure I love that he'll be coached by a French legend though...

https://www.cpfc.co.uk/news/announcement/palace-sign-reading-teen-michael-olise/2021-07-08/

 

In fairness he grew up at a time when you might get a brick through your window for being Irish.

 

My mum got that for being an Irish family. She classes herself as English but each to their own I guess.

 

What has he done?

 

For every Kilbane there were five who clearly were playing for Ireland as a second choice, everyone in Irish football when not keeping up appearances for the media understands this.

And to be clear, if Kilbane (who obviously has a strong irish identity) had never kicked a football no normal Irish person would have considered him to be Irish, if he went to Ireland he would be English. In the real world nobody thinks a person becomes Irish because they are a decent footballer

 

I don't think that's true of Irish people at all. They're quite proud of their diaspora and don't have much trouble considering them Irish too.