English players Dual Nationality thread #2

Discussion in 'England' started by roverman, Sep 26, 2020.

  1. ChristianSur

    ChristianSur Member+

    May 5, 2015
    Club:
    Sheffield Wednesday FC
    Seven common nationalities, I should have said. I can't count.
     
  2. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    I put it into Chat GPT and it came up with this:

    In Robinson’s case, the eligibility complexities arise due to his dual British-American nationality. For someone born in the U.K. with an American parent, the eligibility rule could be interpreted to require a residency period in the U.S. to qualify for the U.S. Men’s National Team (USMNT), according to the "common nationality" provision. This provision was specifically designed to prevent players from representing a national team purely based on shared nationality, such as American citizenship spanning the U.S. and its territories or British nationality spanning England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

    Why Robinson’s Case Was Still Allowed
    Despite Article 7’s intent, Robinson’s eligibility was approved due to his status as an American citizen from birth, as established under U.S. law. FIFA’s eligibility rules tend to defer to national citizenship laws when determining eligibility, and Robinson’s status as an American citizen through his father likely bypassed the residency requirement that would normally apply for common nationalities. Essentially, FIFA appears to have accepted Robinson’s direct citizenship rather than applying the common nationality clause, possibly due to the complexities of dual citizenship law.

    Key Points on FIFA’s Interpretation
    • Direct Citizenship: FIFA often prioritizes a player’s citizenship status over residency if the player can demonstrate direct citizenship at birth, which is likely why Robinson’s case was approved.
    • Lack of Precedent for the Rule’s Application: The common nationality rule is rarely enforced strictly when it involves a dual citizen who has never played for another national team. Robinson was never part of the English national setup, making his eligibility case more straightforward.
    • Complexity of Dual Nationals: In cases of dual nationals like Robinson, FIFA often allows flexibility, especially if a player hasn't represented another association or applied for a formal nationality switch.
    Similar Cases and Potential Loopholes
    Cases involving common nationality are rare but have occurred in other contexts. For instance, dual nationals in the Caribbean with U.S. citizenship through birthright have sometimes bypassed residency requirements due to similar interpretations of eligibility. The rule may leave room for interpretation, especially for players with birthright citizenship who have clear family ties to their chosen nation.

    FIFA’s acceptance of Robinson’s case could highlight an area of the rulebook that may need clarification or reinforcement if they wish to consistently apply the "common nationality" rule more stringently in similar future cases.
     
  3. ChristianSur

    ChristianSur Member+

    May 5, 2015
    Club:
    Sheffield Wednesday FC
    #6353 ChristianSur, Oct 26, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2024
    It probably shouldn't be a surprise that it came back with nonsense, but this in particular:

    If FIFA's eligibility rules were intended to defer to national citizenship laws in cases like this then Article 7 (formerly Article 6) wouldn't exist. Its entire raison d'etre is to restrict eligibility that would otherwise be granted by nationality law in those countries and territories.

    Anyway, I've just emailed FIFA a more generic question about that Article without referring to any named individuals, so if they don't come back on that one then I'll feel more comfortable pestering them about it.
     
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  4. ChristianSur

    ChristianSur Member+

    May 5, 2015
    Club:
    Sheffield Wednesday FC
    By the way, if anyone's keeping score, I did find some information about Robinson's paternal grandfather, and he was born in Spanish Town in Kingston, Jamaica. By some accounts, he was also a gangster kingpin after moving to Nottingham, but I don't think the FIFA Statutes have anything to say about that.
     
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  5. ADM99

    ADM99 Member+

    Apr 28, 2019
    Luca Scanlon (James' younger brother) has been called up to Gibraltar's U17s for their European qualifiers, along with Leicester's Lyndon Turrell. Both are '09s playing a year up.
     
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  6. Crvena Zvezda

    Crvena Zvezda Member

    Manchester United
    England
    Apr 11, 2017
    I don't think notifying FIFA would undermine Robinson's international career necessarily. All his U.S caps should be declared null and void on the basis of ineligibility , which is the federation's fault not his. He would then be free to play for his actual country!
    He'd be at least our second choice left back at the moment I think, even first choice potentially with Shaw's ongoing injury problems.
    As just punishment for fiddling with the rules the U.S.A can sit out the next world cup....which they happen to be hosting...in order to reflect upon their lack of ethics and respect for regulations.
     
  7. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    I’m Pretty sure FIFA have actually checked Robinson and Desf. The Dutch media made a fuss about Dest.
     
  8. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    I think FIFA are the issue here though, not whether they have checked, rather just allowed it.
     

  9. ??
    No, they didnot.
     
    roverman repped this.
  10. ChristianSur

    ChristianSur Member+

    May 5, 2015
    Club:
    Sheffield Wednesday FC
    Correcting myself again: Spanish Town near Kingston, not in Kingston. Should have checked that I guess. Regardless, he wasn't born in the US.
     
  11. Regis Prograis

    Regis Prograis Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Feb 8, 2020
    Just looking at the Sweden U17 team who England are due to play on Wednesday, Charlie Pavey son of former Millwall youth and AIK player Kenny is a starter at RB.
     
  12. Regis Prograis

    Regis Prograis Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Feb 8, 2020
    He scored against Malta, has played a lot for Sweden U16 and U17, and obviously provisionally capped tied as things stand, but one to keep an eye on.
     
  13. Wwvtt

    Wwvtt New Member

    Oct 27, 2024
    Antonee Robinson is indeed eligible for the US.

    The points being mentioned such as the birthplace of a parent/grandparent are written in an article that does not apply to his eligibility for the US (or England). Rather, the points in that article explain how he's ineligible for Puerto Rico and Wales, for example, despite holding both US and UK passports.

    That article is called “NATIONALITY ENTITLING PLAYERS TO REPRESENT MORE THAN ONE ASSOCIATION” and regarding member associations that may hold the same passport between them, for example the US and Puerto Rico, or England and Wales.

    His eligibility for the US (and England) is instead shown by a preceding article that covers the general eligibility requirements and gives two conditions that he both meets:


    The document defines some of those terms, but essentially, the first condition requires that the player holds a passport for that country.

    Robinson has a US passport as his dad was able to pass one down through being a naturalized US citizen.

    His dad’s birthplace doesn’t matter in terms of his US eligibility because he lived specifically in the US (and not Puerto Rico which has a different member association, etc) and met the requirements to become a naturalized US citizen.

    Through becoming a naturalized US citizen, he was able to pass a US passport to Antonee, and the way in which he obtained his US passport directly makes Antonee eligible for the US (and again, not other member associations that might hold a US passport).

    So, Robinson meets the first condition.

    The second condition requires that the passport is "not automatically lost or invalidated following a decision by the player to change his domicile" and "not conditional on the basis of maintaining a domicile in a certain country."

    Neither of those apply to a US passport, so he meets the second condition.

    If he were to also be eligible for Puerto Rico, Wales, or any other member association that may hold a US or UK passport, THEN he would have to meet at least one of the following as stated in the later article:


    But again, that doesn't apply to his US or English eligibility. That's showing why he's not also eligible for Puerto Rico or Wales despite holding US and UK passports.

    In summary, Antonee Robinson meets both conditions to be eligible for the US. The other conditions being questioned wouldn’t apply to his eligibility for the US or England, but rather they explain why he's not also eligible for every member association that may hold a US or UK passports (of course, unless he were to meet at least one of the requirements for any of those member associations or if a specific wrinkle covered elsewhere in the regulations might apply).

    It probably would’ve saved people some trouble if the document was organized/worded in another way, so I can totally understand anyone there.
He is indeed eligible for the US under the regulations.
     
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  14. Uhm, Dest wasnot even on the Orange Squad radar, so what reason for complaining?
    Ten Hag informed the KNVB that the USA wanted to enlist Dest.
    So he was invited to have a talk with Koeman and another guy I forgot the name of.
    In that conversation Dest was shown a list of competitors on the brink of/already playing in the Young Orange Squad he would have to beat to join the young squad.
    He chose the USA instead of biding his time and chances.
    Delusional yanks were claiming they stole Dest, who in their warped minds was promised a certain spot in the Orange Squad (can you imagine one top ten nation doing that with a completely unproven commodity?) and were claiming he would sweep aside Denzel Dumfries as DD was inferior to Dest.
    Yeah, right.:rolleyes:
    I think DD has proven which one is the superior of the two, both in the WC as in the CL.
     
  15. Crvena Zvezda

    Crvena Zvezda Member

    Manchester United
    England
    Apr 11, 2017
    Robinson may indeed qualify as American under the terms of Article 5.
    However article 6 explicitly states any player holding more than one nationality under terms of article 5 must be qualified under birth, residency or both or parents and grandparents.
    It doesn't state that this specifically only refers to those with a common nationality through their passport. Article 5 governs all terms of nationality eligibility.
    Maybe they need to reword it then if it is related to common nationality only? If you could qualify for citizenship through parental nationality only and this applied in football then you'd have players whose only connection qualification was multiple generations back , which is no longer the case since they revised the rules around 15 years ago.
    Are there any other players in international football other than for USA qualifying only through parent's passport but not any of the other eligibility clauses, other than for exceptions stated elsewhere in the statutes?
     
  16. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    I'm sure it would be illuminating to find out how these murky rules came to pass.
     
  17. ChristianSur

    ChristianSur Member+

    May 5, 2015
    Club:
    Sheffield Wednesday FC
    #6367 ChristianSur, Oct 29, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2024
    The problem I have with this explanation is that Article 7 (formerly Article 6) of the RGAS explicitly contradicts it. This is what it said at the time of his first senior cap in 2018:

    https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/2a486a4bd551917b/original/whhncbdzio03cuhmwfxa-pdf.pdf

    [​IMG]

    ...and for the sake of completeness, here's the equivalent article in the current Statutes:

    https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/16d1f7349fa19ade/original/FIFA-Statutes-2024.pdf

    [​IMG]
    Aside from para. 1(d) (which increases the residency period from 2 years to 5 years) and the addition of para. 3, the differences between the two are just numbering and the odd minor change of wording (e.g. "having the relevant nationality" becomes "holding the relevant nationality"). For simplicity's sake, I'll refer to the 2018 version below as that is presumably what allowed him to qualify for the US in the first place.

    The key point is in the very first sentence:

    "A player who, under the terms of art. 5, is eligible to represent more than one association on account of his nationality, may play in an international match for one of these associations only if, in addition to having the relevant nationality, he fulfils at least one of the following conditions [...]"

    In the explainer that FIFA published in 2021, they clarified the meaning as follows:

    [​IMG]

    The same explainer goes on to list the "common/shared nationalities" that art. 6 applies to, and American nationality is the first in the list:

    [​IMG]

    So breaking down the first line of art. 6 (2018):

    "A player who, under the terms of art. 5, is eligible to represent more than one association on account of his nationality [...]
    • Art. 5 lays out the ordinary process by which players qualify to play for an association / national team - you can find it through the link I've posted above if you want to re-read it.
    • To qualify for the USMNT, Robinson is relying on his American nationality.
    • American nationality is explicitly viewed by FIFA as a "shared/common nationality". In other words, under the terms of art. 5, Robinson is eligible to represent more than one association on account of holding American nationality, and therefore the following has to be read and applied.

    "[...] may play in an international match for one of these associations only if, in addition to having the relevant nationality, he fulfils at least one of the following conditions [...]"
    • Applying this to Robinson's circumstances, he may play for the USMNT only if, in addition to having an American passport, he fulfils one of the listed criteria.

    You know what the additional criteria are, but for the sake of completeness:

    "(a) He was born on the territory of the relevant association;"
    • Not fulfilled: Antonee Robinson was born in England.
    "(b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant association;"
    • Not fulfilled as far as we know: AR's father was born in England, and nobody (including US Soccer) appears to be suggesting a link to the US through AR's mother.
    "(c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association;"
    • Not fulfilled as far as we know: AR's paternal grandparents were both born in Jamaica, and again, nobody appears to be suggesting a link to the US through AR's maternal grandparents.
    "(d) He has lived continuously on the territory of the relevant association for at least two years."
    • Not fulfilled as far as we know: AR doesn't ever appear to have lived in the US.

    Common sense might tell you that Antonee Robinson has a genuine link to the US in a way that he doesn't to, say, Puerto Rico or Guam, but the eligibility rules as written appear quite unambiguously to make him ineligible, so your explanation doesn't really work for me. That said, I still think it's most likely that we're missing something, and that something may just be that FIFA sometimes applies the rules in spirit and not to the letter.
     
  18. ADM99

    ADM99 Member+

    Apr 28, 2019
    Man City keeper Lucas Alvarado has agreed to play for Guatamela's U17s. Attended an England GK camp last year.
     
  19. Gaz811

    Gaz811 Member+

    Everton FC
    England
    Oct 15, 2018


    Martin Keown mentions in this video that that he could have played for Ireland but never wanted too.
     
  20. ADM99

    ADM99 Member+

    Apr 28, 2019
    Zecevic-John ended up pulling out of the squad, while Ibrovic-Fletcher started today against a Bulgaria side that includes West Ham's Martin Peychev.
     
  21. Crvena Zvezda

    Crvena Zvezda Member

    Manchester United
    England
    Apr 11, 2017
    Tomas Jonyla, a 15 year old who has played a few times for West Ham Under-18 already, is in the Lithuania team also in these qualifiers
     
  22. ADM99

    ADM99 Member+

    Apr 28, 2019
    Antonio Perkins (West Brom) with Cyprus is another one.
     
  23. Slater582

    Slater582 Member

    Jul 21, 2008
    Shrewsbury, England
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    #6373 Slater582, Nov 2, 2024
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2024
    Seems all three made the 20 man squad for their qualifiers next week.

    Iddrisa a defender. Born in Italy and moved to England aged 8, so has lived pretty much exactly half of his life in both countries. If he doesn't have the necessary documentation to represent England then obviously FA can't pick him even if they rated him and he was willing.

    Rodella a central midfielder. Attended England U15 training camps last year. FA scouts preferred his Southampton teammate Harrison Miles who is a similar player and moved to Manchester City last month.

    Laurence Giani is a left back who unlike Rodella has never been called up by England at any point as I recall.


    I wonder what it says that 10-15% of their U17 squad was developed in England?:confused:

    Although Italy are reigning U17 UEFA Champions and reached the semi-final of U19 tournament, losing in extra time to eventual winners Spain.
     
  24. Ste walker

    Ste walker Member

    Dec 2, 2016
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC

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